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AMA

Iam Romany and a pt gypsiologist

54 replies

RomanyRoots · 15/08/2018 14:29

I would like to clear a few myths, answer any questions I can.
As this is AMA if I can't answer I will try my best to find out, as will help with my studies too.

Much of my work atm and to date has been studying the past, my main interests are culture, folklore, origins, and more recently linguistics. and movement of tribes, although this is quite academic.

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rosiejaune · 15/08/2018 16:07

Other than obviously ethnic origins, what are the main differences between Romany communities and other travelling communities? E.g. in cultural terms, how they travel/live etc.

And is it considered offensive to use the term gypsy, I assume not if your job is entitled that? But I'd read previously it can be.

picklemepopcorn · 15/08/2018 16:24

I'd be interested to know if there is anyway to distinguish between the vast majority of law abiding travelling people, and those who cause and leave chaos behind them. I don't want to discriminate against a race or culture, and I see a lot of groups who abuse the communities they camp among.

MaisyPops · 15/08/2018 16:27

I'd be interested to know if there is anyway to distinguish between the vast majority of law abiding travelling people, and those who cause and leave chaos behind them
Same.
There's no way all roma/gypsy/travellers are all into turning up on car parks and greens, making a mess, fly tipping shit everywhere, petty crime and moving on, but sadly it happen a every time a group comes through our area (there are some settled folk of traveller background who are no bother).

SwimmingKaren · 15/08/2018 16:30

Same too. We’re also having issues here at the moment and it’s a complete nightmare.

Onecutefox · 15/08/2018 17:04

I hope I don't offend you with my question. Don't intend to. Just curious.

  • I am interested if Romany people carry some nostalgia about India - their homeland or is everything long forgotten and they don't feel connected to this land anymore?
  • Is it true that some Romany speak their own language which contains words from the language they brought in from India?

Thank you.

RomanyRoots · 15/08/2018 17:20

Well, first of all the question of turning up and leaving a mess. This does seem to be a problem.
I think/ certainly not certain though that this stems back to when travellers (I'll use that term to describe all tribes, groups and families) were unable to travel as they had done for centuries.When the laws changed
It used to be that the majority of families were respected, they travelled and earned their own living through trades passed down from generation to generation.
Or, they did the jobs on the land for farmers and got to stay on the field.
Traditionally Romany people don't like the indoors, they like to be in the open air and dance to their own tune, not bothering anyone else.

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RomanyRoots · 15/08/2018 17:41

I don't think it's offensive to use the term Gypsy, some purists do because it didn't really come from any travelling culture.
It was a word given to travellers when they first arrived in Europe, Germany was the first, I believe.
They came with a recommendation from the King of Hungary in the 15th Century.
It's interesting how they were persecuted right from the off.
The use of the word also gives nothing to help in understanding the various origins of travelling communities.
Grouping all travellers as one particular group also doesn't make sense of the different cultures and belief between the different races.
IMO you can't be racist against gypsies as they don't exist as one particular race.

The question of culture is a good one.
The families I know and my own family bought land, and built on this, small bungalows usually and had waggons (vardo's) on their land.
They wouldn't stay on sites as they like to see the beautiful landscape of a place, so usually bought in the country, when they could no longer roam freely.
I find the culture of all travellers different in this age.
Times move on and when we used to have basket makers, knife grinders, musicians, poets, and selling door to door (duckerin) we have selling on ebay like small businesses, second hand cars etc.
The Romanies I know are house dwellers now, but some do travel for work and stay with friends on their land etc.

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RomanyRoots · 15/08/2018 17:47

I haven't heard or seen anyone on my travels (to interview) I live in a house Grin who holds an affinity to India, but some still follow traditions from the caste system.
This confuses me as a good source suggests they were fleeing from this same system.

My sister had an arranged marriage, and I was the only one of my generation to be born in a hospital.

before I go on, I need to say that although I've used some of the same traditions as my Romany family, I wasn't raised by them, so some life choices that are similar were/ are completely coincidental.
I had no idea of my roots until I was about 26.

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reeldoop · 15/08/2018 17:54

It's the "not bothering anyone else" that isn't working now. Can I tell you about my direct experiences with Travellers this summer, and then ask you a question?

The town I live in is invaded by travellers multiple times all summer. (they have Irish accents, don't know if that means they are not Romany?) They come over for Races and Horse fairs which are apparently regular calendar events. Also seem to be wedding/finding a mate type events. And it does feel like an invasion. They force their way onto private property and leave an unbelievable amount of rubbish and human waste behind them, each and every time they set up on a site.

This summer my children's end of year festival for their sports team was cancelled (to a loss of 20K - food, catering booked acts, prizes, entertainments) when they invaded the pitches at the clubhouse where it was due to be held the day before. I personally witnessed human faeces and used sanitary towels on the steps of the clubhouse when we went to see if it could go ahead on the morning, rubbish including above and nappies all over the grass, human waste on the paths. We pleaded with them to move on or clear up (or help us clear up). They laughed in our faces. They then drove quad bikes all over the pitches, destroying them as they were wet.

A week or two later we were at a local Cricket Club, children's training, about 50 children of all ages including toddlers watching on the pitches. A different Traveller group invaded. there is no other word. They blocked the single track entrance/exit with a line of caravans, broke a metal gate and squeezed a couple of caravans onto the pitches where children were still playing cricket and drove across it, narrowly avoiding the spectators, and stopped in the middle. At this point the club owners barricaded the entrance and a stand off ensued. Nobody could leave.They were politely asked not to come onto the pitches, they laughed. Eventually they left as they couldn't get the rest on, at almost 11pm. Everyone was trapped there until then. Some people with young babies were forced to leave their cars in the carpark and get taxis home as had no formula for the babies last bottle. The county match the next day had to be cancelled and forfeited as the pitch was damaged. Another event young children had worked hard towards ruined.

More recently our local park was invaded. Again, quad bikes, human shit, aggressive dogs. When they were moved on, human waste left under the swings and all over the grass, overflowing piles of putrid rubbish. Mess everywhere. The park was unusable for a week while they were there - so that's all the local kids off school, in the hot weather, dog-walkers, various community exercise groups, mother and baby groups and day centre for young adults with LD who run a community garden there (destroyed), and then for another few days while the mess was cleared up and the council sanitised the playpark.

On all 3 occasions, the route out of town that they took to reach the by-pass/motorway goes past the local dump.

So my question is, whether or not their actions are justifiable or not in terms of the land and lifestyle - why do they travel without sanitary measures put in place (surely the could use chemical toilets?) and why don't they take their rubbish with them? Given that they pass local dumps, you'd think they could just bag it up and sling it over the fence at least. Given that that is the most offensive part of their lifestyle, the thing that offends people the most and causes the most aggravation/discrimination - why don't they clear up after themselves? Is there a cultural reason?

RomanyRoots · 15/08/2018 18:39

I don't think these actions are justified and firmly believe that this type of person/ people use travelling as an excuse to do this, not that they are a particular community/ communities, or indeed in keeping with any travelling lore I've heard of.
Some people are just awful, I have witnessed it myself on numerous occasions.
The fair and circus folk are great so I hear and have experienced in our town. They behave because it's their livelihood and they would never be asked back again.
These too are considered travellers, some are Romany, some Irish, some Romanichal (travellers born in UK, with or without Romany blood who travel to countries in Europe)
This is what makes me suggest that if travellers were allowed to "travel" it might not be such a problem.
Or non gypsies (gorger, or any other spelling used) could see that whilst there are some awful travellers there are some respectable ones too.

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reeldoop · 15/08/2018 18:57

You mean we only see the awful ones? I think you're right, we only see the ones I described here.

We do have a couple of fairs that come every summer, and you're right again, if they are a travelling community (and I don't know if they are or is it just a summer "job") they behave very differently. They provide fun entertainment and leave the land exactly how they found it - even repair any tyre marks if the ground is wet. One in particular that comes is called Carters Steam Fair and they are locally recognised as being helpful and polite and don't leave any mess.

I think that the other types of travellers need to speak up more and say "not in our name" because round here if you mention the word Travellers people go pale, rush off to secure any clubs or community spaces they are involved in and ring the council and police. We also have the police writing to us directly (and on FB) saying don't take up any of the offers of work or trade (driveways, trees and the like) so they don't get any work round here either (apart from my idiot neighbour that got some travellers to cut down massive trees in the back garden instead of using a tree surgeon - they did a half job, buggered off, left a huge treetop hanging half cut which later fell and injured their dog, who later died).

It's kind of a shame that the genuine Romany heritage is being lumped in with people that treat the locals like and to shit, compared to what you describe. I also hear terrible language and comments made about Travellers as a result.

RomanyRoots · 15/08/2018 19:25

Aw, Romany linguistics, I don't profess to know much at all, it's so complicated.
I do know that there were Romanies who couldn't communicate with each other because they couldn't understand each other.
An example is part of my ancestral family settled in Wales, and travelled mainly in the North and North Wales, moving south for hop picking in Kent or to the Horse fairs, to sell their horses. etc.
The "Kale" were welsh Romany and this language was still the predominant language until the 50's/60's.

Other languages have evolved over the years and depending on culture and origins could be totally different to their neighbours.
There are some words that are used throughout,
Both Manchester and Liverpool Uni's have very well supported linguistic ongoing research and some published already.
It's a very academic field and I think I'll just manage the basics, but I find it so interesting.
I must add too, that apart from interviews with older family members and older extended family and their families, all of my information comes from freely available resources online.

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RomanyRoots · 15/08/2018 19:28

reeldoop

Yes, I firmly believe this. I suppose in a way they are trying to hold onto the culture that may have been passed down, but become annoyed that there are so many barriers today.
However, my studies show that travellers were persecuted from the start, so I guess they can't blame that as being something recent.
I'm sure many travellers throughout the world would like to know the answer.

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Weedsnseeds1 · 16/08/2018 00:35

OP, I have positive experiences with travellers, local settled families were patients of my late father and attended his funeral.
They used to give us a Christmas tree and wreath each year.
Today I was working at Cardiff docks, there's a static site and a lot of tethered ponies along the verges on the dock access road. Some of them had water buckets, but not all, those that did couldn't always reach them because the tethers were too short. One pony had a round bale supplied, but was rolling on his tether trying to reach it, another had sweet itch ( obvious from raw patches) and was almost strangling itself trying to scratch by rolling on a tether. I'm used to seeing tethered ponies, but some of these ones worried me.
I am back same place tomorrow.
If I stopped at the camp and let them know about the ponies without water etc, in a polite way, do you think they will accept it as well meant or take offence? Would it be foolhardy of me to chat to them?

rosiejaune · 16/08/2018 02:28

The OP has already said Roma don't tend to stay on sites, so chances are that those horses are with Irish travellers, and the OP may not know how they would react.

It's also not Romany travellers' job to say "that's not us" about some Irish travellers' behaviour, because it isn't them!

Nor is it Irish travellers' jobs to control less considerate Irish travellers.

Any more than it is Muslims' job to tell everyone Islam is a peaceful religion. I feel sad when I see stalls like that in town; they shouldn't have to do that in order to not get attacked by ignorant bigots.

It is the job of those in the social majority to not discriminate against people based on the group they belong to (or that they perceive them to belong to) though.

There are plenty of right-wing Zionist Jews I disagree with, but it's not my fault they are like that. Nor is it my responsibility to apologise for them.

RomanyRoots · 16/08/2018 11:45

weed

I hope you didn't go to see them, I guess your at work now.
I would say this about any group of people who are mistreating their animals, don't approach them.
if they aren't bothered about their animals you wouldn't get a warm welcome.
Please report to the RSPCA, if necessary they can have Police accompaniment to visit the site.

Thank you for sharing your positive experience of travellers.
If you were to meet those on the site you might find they were miles apart from the family your father and you knew.

I don't think it's as easy to suggest they are irish travellers, of course they could be as a lot of the irish do live on static sites, but this isn't to say they aren't mixed with people of Romany blood.

Obviously the next generation to those that settled, some could have met other types of travellers and be travelling to sites themselves now and maybe didn't settle in houses as adults.

Oh, back to the horses, forgot to mention, the RSPCA are hot on intervention for gypsy animals the same as for anyone else.
I didn't go but was told there was a strong presence at Appleby this year.

I think mistreating animals is a thing that didn't used to happen too.
When travellers "travelled" their horses needed to be fit to take them on long journeys, they stopped near streams and the first thing they did was care for their horses.
In the winter they'd stay in barns and care for other animals and help the farmers, especially harvest.
The farmers would treat them well in return for them working the land.

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Weedsnseeds1 · 16/08/2018 19:18

Rosie, I asked the OP for advice, not an apology. I ( rightly or wrongly) thoughts even was likely to have more insight on the situation than me, being from the travelling community herself. What would she have to apologise for? They aren't her ponies.
OP, thank you for your response. I didn't speak to them, I just moved a few water buckets instead!
The animals look in pretty good condition,but I don't understand why someone would go to the bother of lugging water quarter of a me down the road and then deny the ponies access to it.
I appreciate that there are good reasons for tethering, including restricted access to grass to avoid laminitis, so that wasn't the issue.

Weedsnseeds1 · 16/08/2018 19:48

onecutefox you have probably heard, or even used, a lot of Romani derived words without realising.
A lot of them derive from Hindi, so trace back to India.
Cushty, cushy, pal, cosh, shiv, drag ( as in drag queen), wonga, posh, chav ( possibly, although there are other suggested derivations), narc etc

JesusInTheCabbageVan · 16/08/2018 20:02

Had no idea Romany people originated from India!

My question is dog related. We have a lurcher who was found abandoned, and quite a few people have commented that it was 'probably Gypsies'. Hmm Everyone seems to know lurchers that have been dumped by Gypsies, and it recently occurred to DH that his childhood dog (who he was always told had been dumped by Gypsies) may well not have been, since how could anyone know who had dumped him?

We have a Gypsy and Traveller site nearby and there are a few horses tethered around, but I have never seen a single lurcher. Nor have I seen any on Big Fat Gypsy Weddings (sorry, but that's about the extent of my exposure to the culture Blush).

So is this in fact a racist myth?

RomanyRoots · 16/08/2018 20:33

I'm not sure about racist tbh, I mean obviously there's no way of telling who dumped them.
It could just be a myth, but I do know that travellers from all tribes, groups, families used to have them, there are scores of photo's of gypsy folki with their lurchers.
However, once again I can't see why they would do this.
Presumably if ill they would treat or shoot them. There are lots of potions for different ailments for animals as well as humans.

I'm asking for so many books for Christmas and my pt hobby has taken over my life since starting this thread Grin

However, I'm uncertain as to how families on sites would manage now. I suppose it would be high vet costs, maybe they escape more.
I will ask about or look through my significant resources.

Jesus

I started off with just one name on ancestry and it sort of took over.
Dare I say there is a school of thought that says everyone in the UK has a gypsy in their ancestry. Just thought I'd warn you, I had absolutely no idea when I started, i don't know a huge amount now, but I know where to get the info now.

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RomanyRoots · 16/08/2018 20:58

Weeds

That's so true about the words, but they can also be spelt in different ways, maybe it's just bad spelling, i believe the jury is out on that one, but chav - young man is also termed chal and pronounced differently.

There is no distinct language because travelling to various parts of Europe from India, whichever way and whenever they came the language evolved with European influence.
Take a look at this.

romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/whatis/language/history.shtml

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RomanyRoots · 16/08/2018 20:59

On the left hand side look at the brief history link.

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unlimiteddilutingjuice · 16/08/2018 21:05

Thanks for starting this thread OP. A friend of mine (herself an Irish traveller) has married into a Roma family from Romania. I've visited her in laws and was really struck by some of the cultural differences. I have some questions:

What are the cultural rules around cleanliness. I read somewhere that food needs to be washed in a different sink to dishes for example. Is this true?

I've noticed Roma women wearing quite long skirts. What are the modestly rules for women? What are cultural expectations for how women should interact with men?

Finally: I once saw a stunning film about gypsy music, dramatising how they picked up different influences as they travelled from Asia and through Europe. It had no dialogue but the music was fantastic. I haven't been able to find it since. What film am I thinking of? If not, can you recommend me a good YouTube documentary about gypsy culture?

LuckyTwiglet · 16/08/2018 21:58

Hi! When the Shelbys speak in their Gypsy language in Peaky Blinders, is this a genuine Gypsy language? If so, what dialect?

RomanyRoots · 16/08/2018 22:27

unlimited

I can't help with much of this but what I do know:

Cleanliness is next to godliness, traditionally and today Roma women devote a lot of their time to cleaning and childcare.
Contrary to belief they do not take their daughters out of school to mind their siblings whilst their mothers are lazy.
They do remove them to learn how to keep house, mind their kids, cook and clean and of course provide all the emotional support to the family.
The man is still the head of the household, but isn't awful and domestically abusive as reported. Of course it exists as it does in society as a whole, but no more so.

Different sinks I haven't seen, but I have seen my family members use different coloured bowls.
They have towels for show, not be used.
Toilet seats are always closed, I get told off for forgetting. This isn't for cleanliness though, it's to stop evil spirits entering the home.
Anything touched by an animal stays outside, so you'd wash animal bowls etc outside.

Everything is polished until it gleams and they get the best china off the dresser when you visit, and the spread of food would feed an army.
Perhaps because they were born into poverty. I couldn't cope with that much cleaning even if I was training a teen to do it.
I want more than that for my dd. My cousins children ( so once removed) are all very happy though, we see them as oppressed they see it as their life and generally speaking they are happy.

The modern day settled Roma seem to live a very similar lifestyle to the one their parents did. The same beliefs are apparent and passed down.
I visited an old Aunt, her home and garden were like a show house, amazing, lots of old antiques, brass, and china. There was no tatt and everything has a story attached.

Clothes are an interesting subject.
Traditionally when girls were between 11 and 14 they all left school, but unless academic the rest of society used to be like this too.
They were prepared to be good wife potential by about 16, working was unheard of unless it was dukkerin/hawkin.
Now, some, especially settled Roma stay on at school and have jobs, some even have careers. The traditionalists don't raise their dd for the latter.
So if they were to have an arranged marriage at 16, they would want their girls to be plain looking, a virgin was the only acceptable position to marry a gypsy. It was long maxi dresses similar to the 70's type.
Now it's anybodies guess, and those scantily dressed tweens with make up that you see on gypsy wedding do exist.
It's so sad that the girls are paraded this way, I'm not implying it's sexual at all, but a show to other families that their girls are being prepared for their future now.
My cousins girls all wear designer labels but nice dresses, this seems to be the thing these days.
Some travellers I saw recently in our town were buying half of Primark out, all the gaudy colours and prints that are usually left Grin
It was nice to see they could pick out clothes that were comfortable for them and obviously in keeping with their tradition.

I'm afraid my experience and knowledge about how they are supposed to act and what actually happens are two totally different things.
I do hope it isn't widespread but am witness to much hypocrisy in the never been kissed and still a virgin when they marry, even at 16.
I and many others I've come across are the products of this.
Sometimes the family would pass a baby off as one of their own, if there were too many already they were adopted.
Now, they terminate and it's kept between the female women in the family, the girls father or brothers aren't told.

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