Iam Romany and a pt gypsiologist

[RomanyRoots]

I would like to clear a few myths, answer any questions I can.
As this is AMA if I can't answer I will try my best to find out, as will help with my studies too.

Much of my work atm and to date has been studying the past, my main interests are culture, folklore, origins, and more recently linguistics. and movement of tribes, although this is quite academic.

I find English a fascinating language, because it adopts and adapts so many words from elsewhere.
There are a lot of words directly from Hindi - shampoo, juggernaut, khaki, gymkhana, pantechnicon etc.
Those with Latin, Greek, French, Norman roots.
Words that have passed from Romani, Yiddish, Italian and more in to cant and polari and into the mainstream.
Words that are in everyday use and we don't really think about. We might not use some of them ourselves but know and recognise, like khazi for toilet, mush ( oy, mush) for man.
Then you have coded languages, like tic tac...
Just so interesting.

Weeds

Wow, you sound really clever. I'm just starting to read up, it is fascinating.
I think I'll splash out on some audio recordings as well.

It's great to be able to see the extent of the problem of defining one Roma language. I love the fact that the research is ongoing.

I'm not going to mention my bad luck with DNA, but my ds2 has the identifying gene to access the main Roma DNA research, but unfortunately, it has to be father to son and that doesn't apply to us.
I haven't looked at other research or tests yet though.

Thanks RomanyRoots that was fascinating. I had no idea about evil spirits sneaking in through the toilet

I managed to find the film I was on about . I think I'll give it another watch.

OP, cant (s) are secret languages designed to stop others outside the group understanding - be that prisoners, circus performers, travellers, or whoever.
Polari is ( or maybe was, don't think it's used so much now) a secret gay language, particularly in the theater, as homosexuality was illegal. Both draw on other languages, including Romani and Yiddish in particular.
I'm not a linguist, but enjoy language. Once you " tune in" you hear the links and connections everywhere.
So something like chick for a woman - Romani chikni ( daughter), more than likely this is connected.
Place names - cester ,/ chester endings are Roman, ham / ford / bury endings are Anglo Saxon, witch endings denote a salt mine.
There's a place near me called Old Mixon - it comes from midden or dung heap

Even the word gypsy is a corruption of Egyptian, because that's where the English thought they came from - hence the Egyptian act 1530.
You could get done for being a counterfeit Egyptian too, if you ended up travelling through economic circumstances!

A few different cultures have either been mistaken for, or claimed to be from Egypt.
The declaration of Arbroath even claims Egyptian ancestry for the Scots, of all people!

I wonder if it was a way to deflect racism as people would have heard of Egypt and known it as a place with a revered civilisation.

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwirpv7f3vLcAhVUecAKHanqCUQQwqsBMAF6BAgKEAU&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov
Hope this link works, you can hear Romani, Yiddish, backslang etc. It's in Polari

The Egyptian act was all about racism unlimited !

Link doesn't work, sorry. Google " how gay men used to talk", it's a YouTube clip

Unlimited the film is Latcho Drom, it's beautiful isn't it.

Thanks for this thread OP, it's fascinating.

I know people who still use Polari, though it is more a smattering of words sprinkled through their speech.

When I was at school I knew a Roma family, they were hugely insulted if you called them travellers. The girl I knew best said it was the worst insult you could use towards them.
Have you ever come across that?

Hi all, thank you all so much to contributing to the thread, I do feel a bit of an imposter as it's AMA and you seem more knowledgeable than me
but if I can I'd still like to keep it going as it seems one of the only gypsy threads that hasn't turned into a bun fight, yet

I can't remember where I saw it but will look again, but I read that although the cast members spent time in a Romany community, or so they thought, the language used for the film "Latcho drom" was Irish Gypsy.
Will see if I can find a link.

oh my goodness.
I haven't seen any modern day films as wanted to get as much of the truth about folklore and culture before getting involved with films that could confuse the truth.

I have just looked at an account of "Peaky Blinders" which was the one referred to as using the wrong dialect for characters, and my family are included. I'm descended from Lee and Smith to name a couple.
Just looking through my tree as they came from Birmingham from as early as 1811.

I must just put this here as well, because I'm thinking how did this happen.
There are some traditional ceremonies when Roma become married, they jump over the broom if not having an official wedding by a minister.
Where we get the saying "living over the brush" from.
The only thing I can think is that there was some sort of publicity going on here for some reason. A gov tactic to ease racism, maybe.
This guy is even a closer ancestor and I have a direct link
Take a look and see what you think.

Petulengro is the Spanish name for Blacksmith, so of course they became smith when moving to England.

OP can I ask if you were in care? I ask as you say you were not brought up by your family and there is an increasing number of traveller children (whether Irish, Romany etc) taken into care each year, mostly because o r DV/addiction issues.

Petulengro is not Spanish for blacksmith... I think it would likely come from an Indian language if anything, but it’s certainly not Spanish.

No, I wasn't in care, but adopted from birth.
Ironic actually as the given reason was the cultural one of not being able to marry a gypsy if not a virgin.
My bm went on to marry a gorger and it wouldn't have mattered.
I do think I dodged a bullet though, as I don't think I'd have had the upbringing I did.

Petulengro were the Smith family that is believed to have come through Spain, not that it's a spanish name, sorry.
My sources say it's Petul (sanskrit) meaning horseshoe and Engro meaning man or thing.

Very interesting thread, OP. Thank you!

Do you look Roma or a bit like an Indian?

So Smith surname is more related to Roma it I had understood it correctly?

I believe so, the name Smith seems to go back at least 300 years, but unfortunately I have hit a brick wall at 1811.
The family seemed to have used at least 2 surnames interchangeably and the forenames are all over the place.
I did what I could and then emailed the gypsiologists and genealogists on the best sites, they told me what I knew and didn't know any more. I'm determined to keep going though.
I wouldn't mind but I started it so I could at least give our children some info on their roots. I had my bm name and that was it.
They aren't the slightest bit interested, although my future dil is interested as they are having a baby soon.

People often ask me if I'm foreign. i'm very dark sort of swarthy looking but don't look Indian or any other particular race. My hair used to be raven black when younger, it's lightened now.
I have very dark eyes and hair is unbelievably curly, I'm only 4ft 11 too, which generally speaking puts me in the Boswell camp, but it's nothing scientific, just hearsay.

All the major names such as Lovel, Boswell, lee, Smith, are huge families.
But you obviously find Romany blood in all families as the generations marry and produce children.
The Welsh side of my family with names of Wood, Price, Taylor are also Romany as they too came from Europe, they just ended up in wales and spoke Kale.
If that makes any sense.
i also don't see how there can be any pure bred Romany either, they would just have to have kept to one line and not deterred at all.

My mums family are Romany I find it really interesting. My uncle had been trying to trace back and had to certain dates but had found it difficult due to dome not being married and having different names etc.

I have some great photos of the horses etc. They were hawkers and used to go mossing and make wreaths to sell.

Our Romany name is Loveridge

One of my
Photos

How do you feel about girls leaving education at 12 to look after their siblings and marriage their only future, never working?

Slinky

i know there's a problem with them changing names and not being married.

Have you or your Uncle posted on any of the boards, I'll link a couple. There are lots of people who hit a brick wall and find the answers on there.
Also, if you can find the route they travelled you'll often find several children are christened in the same church at the same time.
I have one ancestor who had one child christened twice both with different mothers name.

romanygenes.com/ www.gypsyjib.com/

I love the picture, thanks. it is very interesting, Loveridge is one of the names I don't have so far, but one of the major Romany names.

CSI It's not something I would have liked, nor wanted for my dd, but it's the culture.
Women come second to men, but gain some respect when they have their own children.
There are more Romany women who work these days, than not.
Some still take their girls out of school, but this number is dwindling iirc.
The ones that do leave school don't feel as though they've missed out on anything and lead fulfilled lives, I suppose if you have nothing to compare it to then you never know anything different.
My cousins dc (once removed) are mostly sahm's, but I have uncles whose wives work, several in jobs like council planning dept, highways, dept store, counsellor. So the men aren't refusing their wives the choice to work, or choosing those that want to sah, unless that's what they want.

I think my mum's family may have been settled Romanies - they were Richardson's from Sussex. My great grandfather was a hawker when a young man and they all had extravagant biblical names like Nehemiah and Goliath. I don't know if I will ever find out for sure, but factors seem to add up!

I am fascinated by the culture. I went on course at work (local council) and I remember someone saying they visited a Romany caravan and put their teacup on the floor at their feet when it was finished and this caused horror as it was seen to be such an unclean thing to do. I also remember lots of customs about menstruating women being kept separate and how children are very highly regarded and their wishes often complied with. This must be 20 years ago - it made such an impression!

When you see gypsy programmes on TV they show the young men "grabbing" the girls. Is this real or is it for tv? Why do they do that?