Good things about being a feminist

Good last point there TSH BUT if men are THAT worried about their wives, sisters and daughters being raped, surely they would all form a massive powerful coalition against patriarchy of the kind that feminists are trying to do. Why are they so strangely silent? In fact, I'd say the police who disbelieve victims have wives and daughters. IN fact, I'd say RAPISTS have wives and daughters. Oh, wait, lots of rapists do rape their wives and daughters. Can't be that bothered about their wives can they?

WHile I see your point about caring about men, I really think if men are that bothered they should do more to show it, frankly.

I do, thanks! Also airconditioning in the bedroom, which is wonderful. If I didn't have that, I think I'd never sleep and basically just sit around whinging. As it is, I've made a little next on this bed and may not leave till my waters go.... fingers crossed it will be soon!

doesn't sound rambley to me, sounds great.

Hope you've got a lifetime supply of ice pops or something to keep you cool btw!

fab post blackcurrants. It's mad the amount of justification you/me/one has to go through to go out in shorts with unshaved legs

It's just ridiculous.

I like being a feminist because it means if the house is a state it's no my fault any more or less than it's DH's fault.

I love being a feminist because it helps me reject the scripts that are projected on me by the patriarchy: appearance is one example, by no means the only one, but it's pertinent at the moment because just yesterday I found myself picking up the dog leash and thinking "yes, I am going out in these shorts and this tank top even though I look neither glam nor polished: it's 40C outside and I'm 37 weeks pregnant, and no, I haven't shaved my legs because I can't bloody well reach without breathing in, and it's uncomfortable, so sod it, if and when I shave my legs, it's for my own pleasure, and no one else's."

The weekend was a long-weekend over here (Independence day) and DH had monday and tuesday off. He grew masses of stubble and I doubt he ever thought "I should shave this so that I am more aesthetically pleasing, before I go outside." Because he's not expected to be aesthetically pleasing and decorative first and foremost - he's a man, and is expected to be other things within the patriarchy (many of them toxic) - but he is at least allowed to slob off grooming when it's uncomfortably hot. I had to earn that allowance for myself, by fighting off the Patriarchy On My shoulder - and Feminism gave me that confidence.

ramblerambleramble... long way of saying Feminism gave me enough outrage at the injustices in the world for me to become brave, and some of that courage involves saying to the world: Here I am, I'm good enough as I am, take me as I am - or sod off

The Women of Westminster sound like feminists then, TSH.

Since my version of feminism is that men and women are both people, and neither group should be kept down by the other, you'd be hard pushed to be more egalitarian. More egalitarian than a straw feminist you've made up, yes.

That Susan Brownmiller quote is interesting. Having seen the recent cases where male dominated police forces refused to take victims seriously or collect evidence when allegations of rape were made (I'm thinking John Worboys and Kirk Reid), with the result that countless more rapes were allowed to happen, it almost makes sense to me. I wouldn't say it's always conscious, but I would say it's no skin off most men's nose if women are being raped and men aren't being punished for it. If you state a view that rape is common (a fact) then you are immediately labelled an "extremist", it's said you think "all men are rapists". But it's the same people saying that who would blame me if I were raped walking alone at night, because I should have "expected it". Whichever way some people have to spin the facts to get Rape Is Women's Fault And No Man Should Have To Suffer For It, they will.

THeShriekingHarpy, thanks to feminists you're allowed to say you loathe housework wihout being regarded as a pariah

I love being a feminist because I have the freedom to do whatever I like to my pubic hair, no matter WHO may think it's "just wrong"

I love being a feminist because there is 2 days' washing up in my sink and although I am having feelings of displeasure at knowing I have to do it tomorrow, I have no feelings of guilt whatsoever.

But we have a reason for these choices. And wish to celebrate that fact.

What makes you a non-feminist then Harpy, out of pure curiosity?

I love you SSM. Is it "he is an insecure macho tosspot"?

Not having my self-esteem depend upon my rapidly declining looks or upon my ability to attract and keep a man

Sharing equally with my husband the burdens of breadwinning and bringing up our son

The joy of female company

It's not about forbidding people from doing the hoovering or wearing stilettos. It's about questioning why women are thought to be "better" at housework ( you can bet if it was a well-paid job, suddenly men would be better at it as they're more "systematic" or something), and why women get ridiculed whether they do or whether they don't conform to the standard of beauty. Someone like Ann Widdecombe for example, everyone took/takes the piss out of her for dressing (more or less) in the same way as her male colleagues. But then Theresa May ( I think) has the piss taken out of her for having several pairs of shoes, it's always the first thing mentioned about her.

Also there's the issue of women's time. Time is precious and I sometimes resent the fact that the shaving/make-up/hairdrying/straightening/outfit choosing needed to get me "smart" enough for e.g. a meeting, or a dinner, takes up a massive amount of time. Every woman has probably literally spent months of her life doing activities that no-one asks or expects men to do. This is my life that's going past here.

OrdinarySAHM

I think feminists just want society to stop telling women how we should be! There are more differences within the sexes than between but it is society that tells us that men and women are poles apart and women are more "feminine", naturally better at housework etc but there is no scientific evidence to support this.

Lots of women do doll themselves up for their own pleasure, so do men, everyone wants to be attractive to the opposite sex but it isn't so prescribed for men (I wouldn't dream of going out with hairy underarms for example 'cos people would make a hell of a lot of judgements about me but isn't that sad? That I feel like I HAVE to alter my physical appearance to be acceptable to society?) men aren't judged by their appearance so much in the workplace for example where appearance shouldn't be an issue but job performance but there are threads on this forum about women being told to put some make up on and how often have you looked in the mirror wondering if what you're wearing is appropriate for work or buying a new outfit for every occasion when a man just has to whack on a suit? Basically feminism sees how men really have it easier than women in these kind of domains and fights against it for those who don't want to be told how they should live their lives.

Anyway, if you think Feminism is oppressive, you misunderstand.

They're enforced by society in general. WOmen are held to a higher standard of behaviour to men in all areas: appearance, cleanliness, sexual behaviour, violence, neglect of children, etc etc. Men get away with lots of things that women can't. It grinds you down after a while. So feminists want to make it okay for women not to have to care about their looks, or worry about the state of their house and all that. feminists don't say you can't try to look beautiful or your best. Just that it's okay not to.

This is really interesting. I actually feel a bit better about the 'feeling inferior because of what I think feminists think' thing after reading your posts, so thank you.

I hadn't really thought of the pressure to maintain your appearance as being one of the bigger feminist issues but lots of people have mentioned it. If women do it in order to get the approval of men then I can see that it is a feminist issue. Don't lots of women do it for their own satisfaction though?

I can see that it is bad if women feel society will think they are worthless if they are not up to a certain 'standard' of physical attractiveness. We shouldn't be all about physical appearance and nothing else. Are these standards that we enforce on ourselves or are they enforced by men (or what we think men think?)

To answer the OP:

I know I look gorgeous in my birkinstocks and can walk for miles

It makes me feel secure and equal to make sure I am financially independent in my marriage and share the costs and the chores with dh fairly

I champion other women and enjoy their successes

I feel connected to my monthly cycle and appreciate the amazingness of my body

I have never wanted to be a man

OrdinarySAHM feminism is about equality.

No-one wants to make you feel bad for being a SAHM. If that works for your family it is great. My own Mum was a SAHM for several years, is a feminist and a good Mum.

I have to agree with the others who say that there is a lot of scientific evidence to say that the idea that women are good at some things and men are good at different things so we have a separate role is not true. It is about the messages we get from society as soon as we are born. I am good at building furniture and reading maps. DP is great at creating a colour scheme in a room and choosing an outfit. Yet I am a woman and he is a man. What it comes down to if foremost we are individual people.

I also don't feel that feminism is about looking down on women for doing housework. I am a woman and don't look down on myself when I am doing the hoovering! What bothers a lot of feminists is the idea that housework is a woman's job, that we should use our leisure time to hang up laundry while our partners or husbands watch tv. Of course if one partner is at work and the other is mainly at home, the one at home is likely to do more housework. It doesn't matter what their sex is. A woman shouldn't have to ask their partner to do do housework if they are equals in their relationship.

It is true that a lot of feminists have issues with make-up, high heels etc. This is because (I think) women seem to be expected to meet a certain standard of look, and that standard involves a lot of things which suggest that a natural woman isn't good enough, she has to be created into a doll version of herself to be acceptable. I must say that I do wear make-up, heels etc at times and I enjoy that. I would prefer not to, when I think about it, but for now that's how I do things. I do feel sad that it is expected though.

Ok now I am rambling.

What I am trying to say is that yes, women are great, so are men and it can only benefit us all if all people have the freedom, choice and support to live their lives fully. At the moment that's a bit harder for women and that's what feminists want to change.

Oh and i would argue that it;s not feminists who say that thinks like childcare are low value, it's society.

There are loads of threads on here which discuss the problem of "how can we make it so that traditional "womens" work is valued by society as much as traditional "mens" work?"

ordinarySAHM I am sure there are people out there who are feminists and say the things that you describe (althouth I have never met one!) but the vast vast majority of the women on this forum don't say those things.

Well the making money and not staying at home thing is espoused by xenia, but that's just xenia and I think her views are as impoartant as anyone elses even if I don't always agree with them!

I also have a bit if trouble with your "what women are good at and what men are good at" list. My DH is a very caring, kind, gentle man, who undertakes the bulk of the childcare off his own bat, bakes, does crafts with them and so on. He is also a massive rugby bloke. By putting him into a box as per your post, and assuming that he wants to go to the pub or play rugby while I look after the children and cook and go shopping, you are going to make us both pretty miserable.

So on the one hand you say you don't like feminism as (apparently) it says ways that women have to behave, then you go on to make lists of what women are like and men are like. That is just as bad!

bigweehag I'm a blonde too, maybe we need to dye our body hair before hitting greenham common