Good things about being a feminist

I think hard things about being a feminist would make quite a long list notenoughsocks. Why don't you start a new thread

Hi btw notenough & mrsbuggywinkle! Sorry I didn't spot that it was your first post.

I don't have DC yet so not up on the current eco-parenting thing. One thing I have noticed though is that where "eco" lifestyles involve a lot more work/time, it is often the woman whose time is considered available to take up the extra burden.

I'm thinking of this couple who have gone over to eating food from within 5 miles of their house. It sounds like she's the one who is having to make the changes to her life: "The financial savings are huge, although the time spent on food preparation has doubled. 'At first I found it very difficult. I had a five-month-old baby, was breastfeeding and had no dishwasher, but then I made the adjustment.'"

My first post too...

There are many many great things about being a feminist, and am happy to expand - but, is it ok to ask here about things people have found hardest about being a feminist?

I had my first baby four and a half months ago, and a lot of things about my new life are making me think very hard about what I think sexual equality looks like, and how we can get it (for example - I choose to exclusively breastfeed which makes it much harder to share the parenting with my partner. I also choose to use cloth nappies but hear that certain sections of the feminist movement - I don't know who - are now suggesting that a lot of eco-parenting is a move which will find mothers pushed back into the home (don't really agree with that one but thought I would mentino it).
Is this the wrong thread for this question?

PS - very glad to have found the feminist section.

I would think that not letting yourself smile would put more of a downer on your life than a few wrinkles would.

there I feel better already.

Yeah I think knowing that you're alright without any special try-hard cosmetic practices is great. Feminism definitely helps with that. It's about sort of accepting that you're a human first and foremost, not a decoration.

Welcome Mrs Buggywinkle!

Gosh that's sad, imagine not laughing or frowning when you feel like it!

My first post on here...Hello!

For me, the ver best thing about feminism is this...

My Mum is a very 'well-preserved' non-wrinkly 55 year old lady. She takes HUGE delight that people often think she is ten years younger than she is and will talk about it for days. The reason behind this, she confided to me when I was 13 as advice...'don't pull faces, don't smile too much, keep your face straight when you get water in your eyes while washing your hair, keep your face still'...

Freedom from that kind of crap. I think of it when I'm gurning at the baby to make her laugh, how sad it is that my Mum won't do this for fear that it might make her less attractive to men.

blackcurrants, I just find it weird that if cleavage is such an inappropriate part of the body to be seen at work, why do almost all clothes available (except those things obviously designed for the retired golfer) seem to put it on show? You don't get shirts for men designed to show off their belly buttons or whatever, so either cleavage (some, not talking Saturday night down the local dive) is acceptable or not. It's just flesh FGS.

TSH, i feel i must bring to your attention that your assertation that it is only a tiny minority of men that rape is false.

statistically, this is simply not true in many places. (i dont know about the UK)

in south africa for example, the majority of men that dont rape sits at roughly 65% of the population. not 80, 90 or even 99% numbers which i would call the VAST majority.

i am sure you will agree that if 45% of a male population rape with impunity, then you would be much less comfortable asserting that as long as only a 'minority' of men rape, its unfair to agree or identify with brownlees argument.

E&M: I feel your pain. I'm, ahem, gifted, and have struggled between 'flaunt it yay!' and "actually my eyes are up here" feelings for ages. Specially when lots of pretty things that I like have necklines that make them impossible for me to use (no cleavage in my job, thanks). I've got a lot of cheapo white tank tops (primarkish) that I wear under things now, which has made some things more possible. But it's annoying to have to have another layer when it's hot, just cos of our strange social obsession with breasts.

I feel like that now, SkaterGrrrl. I am not at all a fashionable or particularly well-groomed person, but I still feel crap if I go out and don't look "nice" where nice = make-up+hair neat (has to be straightened to look sufficiently "neat")+flattering clothes.

I get really wound up because I am caught in a trap WRT clothing. Because I have largeish breasts, if I wear clothes that cover them up totally with a high neckline I tend to be uncomfortable or look frumpy, even fat, because tight clothes strangle me and loose clothes go out over the boobs and hang down from there. OTOH if I wear tops/shirts with a normal neckline (under collar bone but not actually "low" on most women), cleavage is on show. I can't help this, but I feel and my ever helpful mother has said that it makes me look "unprofessional FGS. I hate the fact that if I hide my breasts totally, cleavage and shape I mean (which for me would involve some kind of oversized shirt) you are failing to live up to the f-ing beauty standard and feel crap. But if I let the cleavage or shape show, I am somehow unfit to be seen by children or animals or entrusted with a responsible job. Sadly feminism hasn't helped me with this much yet, except that I know that being ashamed of my breasts is not a good thing to be feeling.

Good things about being a feminist

Loving my body. Feminism gave my body back to me. I am a size 14 with an hourglass figure and I am happy running around a beach in a bikini or walking round the house naked. I am alarmed at the self loathing with which women among my friends and family regard their bodies. Beautiful bodies, most of them, and even if some are different to the sanctioned "beauty type" their bodies are capable and strong - can dance, bear babies, orgasm repeatedly, run marathons... but instead of celebrating these bodies, every wobble or wrinkle is greeted like cancer.

My sister cannot get into a swimming pool without a sarong covering up her "hideous" thighs. She edges towards the pool sitting down, flings the sarong away as she dives under water lest god forbid anyone see her 22 year old thighs. Not for her the freedom of running across the lawn in the sunshine and jumping into the cold water. Someone might see her and find her lacking. Thank you for feminism for letting me love my body.

"I think it is sad if feminism encourages women not to make the best of their female features eg physical ones, by not shaving, not wearing heels, makeup etc (these things seem to be suggested as characteristics of feminists on this thread). I find the differences that make females female, beautiful, and think those differences should be celebrated."

Welcome to the folder OrdinarySAHM

I think grooming or dressing up or applying glittery make up to look beautiful for YOURSELF is wonderful. Beautification for YOU - for fun, self expression, self adornment and playfulness are positive and as a feminist I don't see a problem with it.

What I have a problem with is this iron rule about how women MUST look - so even if you'd rather finish your book, you force yourself to go and shave your legs because you "cant" leave the house hairy. Or even if you're tired and hate the thought of getting up 30 mins early to blowdry your hair, you "must" because you can't go to work without looking polished. It's when the grooming rituals - with all their accompanying expense and vast amounts of time they gobble up - are performed as a chore (one of the many chores a woman must do in her day), to obey some standard of beauty that "society" deems okay that they become just another stick to beat women with!

When I was a younger (and sillier), I would feel flat, unconfident and somehow "lacking" if I went to work without a fashionable outfit, styled hair and make up on - even if I was clean, showered, had clean teeth and hair and clean ironed clothes on. Why is it ok for me n to go out into the world clean but unadorned, but I felt so flat and unworthy without full slap? I often do wear make up now (and I often don't) but now I wear it for me and if anyone wants to judge me for not wearing it, screw 'em.

There is a big difference actually TSH. What Brownmiller seems to be arguing (and yes I need to go and read the book in full) is that culturally men dominate over women, and one of the tools used to do this is rape (in some cases) and the fear of rape. All women are afraid of rape. All men know this. As I said above I don't think all men consciously think "oh goody, rape, that's something that scares women and keeps them down". But things like the low conviction rate (or rather, the low taken-seriously-by-the-police-and-CPS rate) indicate that male-dominated public bodies are allowing rape to continue. Why, is the question?

And before you say they can't stop it, you could say the same about anything. Drug-dealing perhaps. But it doesn't stop special bodies being set up to deal with that, or long sentences handed down to deter people. With things as they are at the moment, it's almost like a greenlight to men who want to dominate women and be violent towards them.

Anyway, to return to your analogies. They don't work because you are comparing Brownmiller's quote about cultural roles of men and women, to statements about the "innate" (genetic presumably) abilities of particular groups. Saying "women have lower paying jobs" is not comparable to saying "women are intellectually inferior" - can you see why?

I don't think Brownmiller is saying that the majority should be incriminated and judged on the actions of a minority, TSH - have you read the book,or are you going on the "all men,all women" quote?
(I'm asking because what you are saying is exactly what I thought until I read the book.But if you've read it,fair enough,obviously we've read it differently!)

"Is it as simple as that though?"

Yes. for proof of how cultural norms affect womens efforts to look a certain, specific way, you don't have to look very far. Compare how younger women dress versus older women, compare the women in Burkhas to the woman in a dress and we haven't even left the UK here. All these different norms tell women how to dress/look/behave/ad infinitum.

That's interesting Pogle, I haven't read it yet but it sounds like I should. (Not one for the AIBU thread unfortunately )

"She quite literally fails to distinguish between men and sexual predators" - but for the most part that's impossible, as most sexual predators are men. You can't distinguish between them as if they're two separate groups when one is pretty much a subsection of the other.

Brilliant post, Sakura. I often wonder that myself, and when I wonder about it I end up feeling pretty disturbed TBH.

What I wonder is when will we get to the point the civil rights movement got to, when white people started to stand up for the rights of black people? When will feminism stop being a "women's issue" for us to sort out (bearing in mind this is impossible), and start being cared about by people of all sexes out of an interest in human rights?

Is it as simple as that though? Is the "norm" in terms of what 'men' (if we can all be lumped together as one homogenous group) 'expect' in terms of female appearance the same as the "norm" that 'women' have in this regard?

"I hadn't really thought of the pressure to maintain your appearance as being one of the bigger feminist issues but lots of people have mentioned it. If women do it in order to get the approval of men then I can see that it is a feminist issue. Don't lots of women do it for their own satisfaction though?"

There is a third option - women do it because of how they feel they will be judged by other women. How common a reason for "maintaining your appearance" is that, relative to the other two options?

I thought this,TSH until I read Against Our Will.I don't think all men are rapists and found the all men....all women statement extremely irritating. I'm not in a state of fear,and the men I know are not rapists.

But a lot of the rape discussed in Brownmiller's book is rape used as a tool of war,or oppression eg in slavery or because of race,and in that context I think the statement that rape is a tool used by "men in general" to keep "women in general" in a state of fear fits only too well.

In that context men are not acting as sexual predators,but they are acting in violence.(The thing that horrified me looking at the more modern examples was how little change there seemed to be ,it still seemed acceptable to rape the enemy women because - well,they were the enemy. And women..)

I'm sure other people will have other views on this,but this is how it struck me.