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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Be Kind 2.0 and the "Persuasive TRA"

478 replies

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 01/06/2026 12:00

This is a spinoff from another thread so as not to derail the original.

I thought it would be helpful to have a separate thread to discuss, and document, a phenomenon I have been seeing more regularly recently: the Persuasive TRA.

It occurred to me, after a few posters noted that the recent U-turns by a couple of politicians, and the wheedling TRA responses to the EHRC guidance, were akin to an abuser changing tactics and also asking us to "help" them in the new single-sex regime, that the whole thing is starting to pan out exactly as an abusive relationship often does. When is the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship? Normally, when she is leaving.

Well, women are leaving the abusive relationship with non-reality that men forced upon us some 15 years ago, and I would argue that now might be our most dangerous/difficult moment.

This is what I posted on the other thread:

I'm starting to see a bit more of what I am calling (in my own head) "Persuasive TRA." Now that they have lost everything that they bullied women for, some activists seem to be changing tack. Women must now fix the situation that TRAs have found themselves in. It seems to pivot on a sort of Be Kind 2.0.

I think women who have been in the game long enough will see through it, but we should be watchful. Stonewall is pivoting, activists are pivoting, and they will be preying on women's socialized kindness: watch for the destination and be on your guard.

I have read several posters on different threads appealing to everyone (women) to help calm trans-identified people's (men's) fears about what this new reality will look like, what it will mean for them (the men) now that they can't just do whatever they want anymore. What about the men's toilets? Are they safe? Where will they go? (Who will fix this problem?)

Well, apparently it is a problem that women can fix, if they just take a moment to think about it. Trans-identified men will be unsafe in the men's, so women need to join the fight to give these men something of their own.

Notice the pivot? The pleading? If you just... If you weren't so.... It can be different if you just... Sound familiar? To any woman who is in, or has escaped from, an abusive relationship, this will be all too familiar.

This is Be Kind 2.0. It's very similar to the original, except that instead of being forced to enjoy our abuse, we are being asked to fix it. And the "Persuasive TRAs" seem to be mobilizing, from what I have seen.

It won't start in the middle (with the women); it will start at the top (infiltrating government, think tanks, charities, etc.) and the bottom (schools). But they will use women to get this moving. Why not? It worked so well last time. And I believe that organizations like Stonewall will be leading the charge: the campaign can be something like Safe Spaces for Trans+ : All of Us Together.

If anyone else has seen this in action, it might be useful to keep a record of it here.

I imagine this thread will eventually be taken over by activists, but, until then, I would be interested in your thoughts.

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BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 07/10/2026 21:33

One of those new excellent explainy thingies from a recent thread:

"Trans women aren't claiming to be natal females they are claiming to be sociological women."

(First mention I've seen of this term, so we'll see if it catches on!) This is sometimes a bit fun, like an infuriating jigsaw puzzle. 😁

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murasaki · 07/10/2026 21:42

There was also the fact that there aren't male brains or female brains but the brain knows you're male or female.

Brain exploded.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 07/10/2026 21:50

murasaki · 07/10/2026 21:42

There was also the fact that there aren't male brains or female brains but the brain knows you're male or female.

Brain exploded.

That one doesn't make sense no matter how you parse it! I wonder if we'll see it "explained" in the WellBN tribunal... that'd be one for the records.

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murasaki · 07/10/2026 21:52

Yes just saw re that tribunal. Hatstand in the extreme.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2026 21:54

murasaki · 07/10/2026 21:52

Yes just saw re that tribunal. Hatstand in the extreme.

Love the term “hatstand”, blast from the past!

murasaki · 07/10/2026 21:57

Showing my age there 😂

AstonCanKissMyArse · 08/10/2026 07:46

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 07/10/2026 21:33

One of those new excellent explainy thingies from a recent thread:

"Trans women aren't claiming to be natal females they are claiming to be sociological women."

(First mention I've seen of this term, so we'll see if it catches on!) This is sometimes a bit fun, like an infuriating jigsaw puzzle. 😁

Until about 5 minutes ago they were claiming to be real, actual biological women. Like Upton.

The ever shifting goalposts...

EmpressaurusKitty · 08/10/2026 07:55

AstonCanKissMyArse · 08/10/2026 07:46

Until about 5 minutes ago they were claiming to be real, actual biological women. Like Upton.

The ever shifting goalposts...

Plenty of them still are. Look on trans Reddit. Or they’re claiming that the phrase ‘biological woman’ is a transphobic dog whistle.

BezMark · 08/10/2026 08:51

Trans women aren't claiming to be natal females they are claiming to be sociological women

Sure, that's what they are asking for. They know that men will hand-wave it a bit and say something like 'you're clearly not men, so I guess...'. So men are not really the issue.

What is being asked of women is that they treat these men as de socio women. That is fair to ask, but if women say no, then no means no, right?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2026 13:38

BezMark · 08/10/2026 08:51

Trans women aren't claiming to be natal females they are claiming to be sociological women

Sure, that's what they are asking for. They know that men will hand-wave it a bit and say something like 'you're clearly not men, so I guess...'. So men are not really the issue.

What is being asked of women is that they treat these men as de socio women. That is fair to ask, but if women say no, then no means no, right?

Indeed.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 08/10/2026 13:57

BezMark · 08/10/2026 08:51

Trans women aren't claiming to be natal females they are claiming to be sociological women

Sure, that's what they are asking for. They know that men will hand-wave it a bit and say something like 'you're clearly not men, so I guess...'. So men are not really the issue.

What is being asked of women is that they treat these men as de socio women. That is fair to ask, but if women say no, then no means no, right?

What is being asked of women is that they treat these men as de socio women. That is fair to ask

At the risk of tipping this thread off-topic: I think I understand what you mean, but I don't think it is fair to ask that.

"Woman" is not something you can socialize into; that's a role played by gender stereotypes. "Woman" is a biological fact. It is not fair for men to ask women to ignore that fact. It's not based in reality and requires people to consider the impossible as though it were possible. And plenty of people have lost a lot because of the demanding asking.

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CassOle · 08/10/2026 14:06

I agree with @BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth
When the only acceptable answer is 'Yes', I'm not sure that this ask actually counts as a question at all, it is surely a demand.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2026 15:08

Agree with you both. Asking is loaded, it’s emotional manipulation. Not that they ever ask anyway, they just take and dare you to say anything.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 08/10/2026 15:12

"You can't do anything about it" or rhetorically "What are you going to do to stop me?"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2026 15:14

Exactly. And therein lies some of the pleasure for them, too.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 08/10/2026 19:58

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 08/10/2026 13:57

What is being asked of women is that they treat these men as de socio women. That is fair to ask

At the risk of tipping this thread off-topic: I think I understand what you mean, but I don't think it is fair to ask that.

"Woman" is not something you can socialize into; that's a role played by gender stereotypes. "Woman" is a biological fact. It is not fair for men to ask women to ignore that fact. It's not based in reality and requires people to consider the impossible as though it were possible. And plenty of people have lost a lot because of the demanding asking.

I agree, but I frame it slightly differently.

If you want to define Woman as something you can socialize into, you are changing what the word means so fundamentally that (1) many of the people you currently assume are women would not identify as such under your new definition, (2) it's so far away from the current sex-based meaning that we will immediately need to create a word for the female sex who will obviously still continue to exist and need to talk about themselves as a sex class (3) given that all the stuff pertaining to women was under the old meaning of the name, it needs to go with the new name and remain sex-based, or at least be explicitly reviewed and agreed that it moves to the social version rather than staying sex-based.

Or - you keep woman sex-based as it is today, and find a new word for your social commonality grouping.

What you don't get to do is fudge it by totally changing what "woman" means and requiring female people to accept the new meaning without challange or protest. Because that is just fucking dishonest.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 09/10/2026 09:41

Contemplating starting a new thread to discuss this, but it will just get piled-in, won't it? Any thoughts yes or no?

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2026 09:43

It will get the usual suspects and the thoughtless one post wonders. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad idea though.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 09/10/2026 10:51

On balance, I think I won't. Seems to be covered quite well in the "trans inclusive feminism" thread, and life is too short to hash over it all again! It's all regressive nonsense anyway.

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Igmum · 09/10/2026 19:03

Belatedly adding another argument to your list BPIACJ - but what about the butch lesbians? Only appeared briefly in the Handbook of Trans Rhetoric, after FWS when attempts were made to argue that no butch lesbian would ever be able to use the ladies loos ever again. A few quislings set up a gotcha somewhere in the US but most Terf Island butch lesbians pointed out they had coped just fine for decades thank you and the argument lost traction.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · 13/10/2026 16:46

Igmum · 09/10/2026 19:03

Belatedly adding another argument to your list BPIACJ - but what about the butch lesbians? Only appeared briefly in the Handbook of Trans Rhetoric, after FWS when attempts were made to argue that no butch lesbian would ever be able to use the ladies loos ever again. A few quislings set up a gotcha somewhere in the US but most Terf Island butch lesbians pointed out they had coped just fine for decades thank you and the argument lost traction.

Yes, thanks. I noted this in July:

  • The Rapid Onset Women with Alopecia, Cancer Survivors and Butch Lesbians Concern (or Rapid Onset Everyday-looking Women Concern) tactic: women who look "like men" will be challenged in women's toilets and changing rooms

But I haven't seen a lot of it recently. Perhaps it's making a comeback? (These things do seem to be cyclical, as old arguments are recycled because the curre ones aren't working).

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RubberDinghyRapidsBro · 13/10/2026 21:36

My LibDem MP has concerns about it. He was more concerned about it than men in women's toilets.

BeSpoonyTurtle · 16/10/2026 16:19

Be kind is nothing more than code for comply

AlexandraLeaving · 16/10/2026 18:39

Prompted by Mx Willoughby's flounce at the latest NHS guidance (not before time) on single sex spaces actually being treated as single sex spaces, what about the notion of 'a woman born trans' as something to consider for the list?

It's twisted wording, with not-a-few logical impossibilities thrown in, but I think it's getting at a slightly different implication about what TIMs are or how they originate. Something 'biological' you might say.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · Yesterday 21:16

AlexandraLeaving · 16/10/2026 18:39

Prompted by Mx Willoughby's flounce at the latest NHS guidance (not before time) on single sex spaces actually being treated as single sex spaces, what about the notion of 'a woman born trans' as something to consider for the list?

It's twisted wording, with not-a-few logical impossibilities thrown in, but I think it's getting at a slightly different implication about what TIMs are or how they originate. Something 'biological' you might say.

Definitely, thanks. I saw that briefly and meant to make a note.

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