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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are toilets still allowed to be cleaned by members of the opposite sex?

510 replies

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 15:50

I see signs saying toilets may be cleaned by members of the opposite sex in a lot of places. Is this allowed after the supreme court ruling? If a male cleaner was in there it would be a mixed sex space.

OP posts:
BobbyBiscuits · 27/05/2025 17:02

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a venue to put up signs saying this female area may be serviced by a male cleaner/plumber. Usually if cleaning or maintenance is taking place they cordon it off anyway. I don't think the court ruling will change that.

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 17:02

MinnieCauldwell · 27/05/2025 17:01

Op, you seem a little over invested in toilets and who uses them.....

That’s rich coming from this place 😂

OP posts:
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 27/05/2025 17:02

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 15:50

I see signs saying toilets may be cleaned by members of the opposite sex in a lot of places. Is this allowed after the supreme court ruling? If a male cleaner was in there it would be a mixed sex space.

Yes and Mr Muscle products can now only be used in Men's or Gender Neutral toilets.
I'm not lying, it's not made, it's a genuine new law.

JasmineAllen · 27/05/2025 17:02

Waitwhat23 · 27/05/2025 17:00

Indeed.

OP, you surely can't be that thick to not see the difference? Or is this the latest ill thought out TRA take on Reddit?

It is obviously the latest ill thought out TRA take on Reddit.

MinnieCauldwell · 27/05/2025 17:01

Op, you seem a little over invested in toilets and who uses them.....

Annoyedone · 27/05/2025 17:01

Waitwhat23 · 27/05/2025 17:00

Indeed.

OP, you surely can't be that thick to not see the difference? Or is this the latest ill thought out TRA take on Reddit?

The latter.

PencilsInSpace · 27/05/2025 17:01

Circumferences · 27/05/2025 16:57

Lawyers are also very precious with their use of superfluous words.

The act was drafted for employers.
It's illegal to employ children in the UK.
There was no need to specifically say "a male of any age but not including children".

The EA covers workplaces, provision of services (to adults and children), education (for adults and children), public functions (i.e. anything the government or LA do for adults or children), associations (including children's associations like girl guiding) ...

JasmineAllen · 27/05/2025 17:00

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 16:53

I completely agree with you that it is different. But the law is binary. If it doesn’t explicitly make provision for opposite sex children in a single sex space then it is not permitted.

Then how do you explain male staff in female prisons/schools and female staff in male prisons schools?

There are obvious exceptions and no matter how much you squeal about little children in women's toilets it is still the law that they are single sex spaces and no men are allowed.

I would absolutely love a TRA to try and bring this to the courts arguing that as women take their young male children into the womens toilets that means womens toilets should be a mixed sex space and allow men in dressed as women. It would be the final nail in the coffin for any dwindling public sympathy for TW.

Waitwhat23 · 27/05/2025 17:00

EmpressoftheMundane · 27/05/2025 16:04

Toilet cleaners work for a company that DBS checks them and has policies and procedures in regards to their behaviour. When an opposite sex attendant is cleaning, they usually put up a sign alerting users.

So very different from the current free for all, where anyone for any reason can sally into the ladies’ room unchallenged and do whatever they like.

Indeed.

OP, you surely can't be that thick to not see the difference? Or is this the latest ill thought out TRA take on Reddit?

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 16:59

Circumferences · 27/05/2025 16:55

PoisedRubyLion has spectacularly missed the point that the EA2010 was drafted for employers.

The words in the EA2010 will refer to adults and adults alone because it's illegal to employ children.

The EA2010 doesn't even mention toilets. It's not about toilets.
It's about unlawful discrimination at work, or housing, or being granted benefits or healthcare.

The words man and women being "of any age" will refer to people "of any adult age" as this is implied by the very point of the act in and of itself.

Men obviously doesn't mean boys. The dictionary definitions are very much locked in to any act of parliament, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

I think you’ve missed the point of the EA2010. It does not just apply to workplaces. It also applies in the provision of services and schools. Unless you’re telling me I can discriminate against children because they have no protection under the act?

OP posts:
Chariothorses · 27/05/2025 16:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Circumferences · 27/05/2025 16:57

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 16:55

Legislators are very precise. Wouldn’t they have specified ages if they meant that?

Lawyers are also very precious with their use of superfluous words.

The act was drafted for employers.
It's illegal to employ children in the UK.
There was no need to specifically say "a male of any age but not including children".

WallaceinAnderland · 27/05/2025 16:56

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 16:55

Legislators are very precise. Wouldn’t they have specified ages if they meant that?

You think the word man can be used to describe a male baby?

PencilsInSpace · 27/05/2025 16:55

DurinsBane · 27/05/2025 16:54

There is nothing to say a biological male can’t use the women’s toilets or vice versa, it is just now since the court ruling venues can legally stop it, or remove the people. If the venue wish to still allow it they can.

Why did the Scottish Government lose then?

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 16:55

WallaceinAnderland · 27/05/2025 16:49

The word 'man' does not refer to a male baby.

Obviously.

Legislators are very precise. Wouldn’t they have specified ages if they meant that?

OP posts:
Circumferences · 27/05/2025 16:55

PoisedRubyLion has spectacularly missed the point that the EA2010 was drafted for employers.

The words in the EA2010 will refer to adults and adults alone because it's illegal to employ children.

The EA2010 doesn't even mention toilets. It's not about toilets.
It's about unlawful discrimination at work, or housing, or being granted benefits or healthcare.

The words man and women being "of any age" will refer to people "of any adult age" as this is implied by the very point of the act in and of itself.

Men obviously doesn't mean boys. The dictionary definitions are very much locked in to any act of parliament, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

PencilsInSpace · 27/05/2025 16:54

Circumferences · 27/05/2025 16:48

The law implies it is an "adult male of any age" or and "adult female of any age" given that the EA2010 in it's creation addresses spaces for adult humans.

It's not rocket science.

You are wrong on this. The EA defines man / woman as a male / female of any age to make clear that sex discrimination against children is unlawful.

DurinsBane · 27/05/2025 16:54

There is nothing to say a biological male can’t use the women’s toilets or vice versa, it is just now since the court ruling venues can legally stop it, or remove the people. If the venue wish to still allow it they can.

Coconutter24 · 27/05/2025 16:54

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 16:36

Section 212 (general interpretations) of the Equality Act:

’man’ means a male of any age
’woman’ means a female of any age

‘man’ means adult male human being
‘Woman’ means adult female human being

PoisedRubyLion · 27/05/2025 16:53

PencilsInSpace · 27/05/2025 16:51

Here are the words of the Supreme Court:

213. If sex has its biological meaning in this paragraph, then a service-provider can separate male and female users as obvious and distinct groups. For example, a homeless shelter could have separate hostels for men and women provided this pursued a legitimate aim, which might be the safety and security of women users or their privacy and dignity (and the same for male users). By contrast, if sex means certificated sex, the service- provider would have to allow access to trans women with a GRC (in other words, biological males who are female according to section 9(1)) to the women’s hostel. The following practical difficulties would arise. First, it would be difficult or impossible for the service-provider to distinguish between trans women with and without a GRC because, as we have explained, the two groups are often visually or outwardly indistinguishable. Secondly and more fundamentally, it is likely to be difficult (if not impossible) to establish the conditions necessary for separate services for each sex when each group includes persons of both biological sexes. For example, it is difficult to envisage how the condition in paragraph 26(2)(a) (a joint service for persons of both sexes would be less effective) could ever be fulfilled when each sex includes members of the opposite biological sex in possession of a GRC and excludes members of the same biological sex with a GRC. In other words, if as a matter of law, a service-provider is required to provide services previously limited to women also to trans women with a GRC even if they present as biological men, it is difficult to see how they can then justify refusing to provide those services also to biological men and who also look like biological men.

Run this through in your mind OP, first while considering the inclusion of men who say they are women in female only spaces, and second, while considering the inclusion of little boys accompanied by their mothers.

I completely agree with you that it is different. But the law is binary. If it doesn’t explicitly make provision for opposite sex children in a single sex space then it is not permitted.

OP posts:
Greyskybluesky · 27/05/2025 16:52

Annoyedone · 27/05/2025 16:48

Aaaandddd here comes the agenda. My bets on a #bekind followed by a scold when we say no. Any bets on 6ft transmen or are we going g for the “lovely trans friend” trope.

It's the latter

PencilsInSpace · 27/05/2025 16:51

Here are the words of the Supreme Court:

213. If sex has its biological meaning in this paragraph, then a service-provider can separate male and female users as obvious and distinct groups. For example, a homeless shelter could have separate hostels for men and women provided this pursued a legitimate aim, which might be the safety and security of women users or their privacy and dignity (and the same for male users). By contrast, if sex means certificated sex, the service- provider would have to allow access to trans women with a GRC (in other words, biological males who are female according to section 9(1)) to the women’s hostel. The following practical difficulties would arise. First, it would be difficult or impossible for the service-provider to distinguish between trans women with and without a GRC because, as we have explained, the two groups are often visually or outwardly indistinguishable. Secondly and more fundamentally, it is likely to be difficult (if not impossible) to establish the conditions necessary for separate services for each sex when each group includes persons of both biological sexes. For example, it is difficult to envisage how the condition in paragraph 26(2)(a) (a joint service for persons of both sexes would be less effective) could ever be fulfilled when each sex includes members of the opposite biological sex in possession of a GRC and excludes members of the same biological sex with a GRC. In other words, if as a matter of law, a service-provider is required to provide services previously limited to women also to trans women with a GRC even if they present as biological men, it is difficult to see how they can then justify refusing to provide those services also to biological men and who also look like biological men.

Run this through in your mind OP, first while considering the inclusion of men who say they are women in female only spaces, and second, while considering the inclusion of little boys accompanied by their mothers.

TheignT · 27/05/2025 16:50

Circumferences · 27/05/2025 16:48

The law implies it is an "adult male of any age" or and "adult female of any age" given that the EA2010 in it's creation addresses spaces for adult humans.

It's not rocket science.

I hadn't thought of that, does it mean a 17 year old can use toilets for opposite sex or are the using a different definition for adult?

illinivich · 27/05/2025 16:49

Caring for children isnt covered by the equality act. Little children will use the toilet of the adult taking care of them because they cannot use the toilet alone.

WallaceinAnderland · 27/05/2025 16:49

The word 'man' does not refer to a male baby.

Obviously.