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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law Project suing the EHRC and Bridget Phillipson - letter before action

410 replies

OhBuggerandArse · 16/05/2025 15:30

Sorry if this has already been shared - here are the links to their letter and statement. Looking forward to the Mumsnet analysis :-)

https://goodlawproject.org/were-bringing-a-legal-challenge-to-the-ehrcs-interim-update

https://goodlawproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Letter-to-the-Equality-and-Human-Rights-Commission-16-May-2025_Redacted.pdf

OP posts:
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SerendipityJane · 21/05/2025 15:37

So here, Maugham is setting out a scenario of a "predatory cis man" pretending to be a checks ... "Post op trans man" (unlike, say, a pre op trans woman) to explain why the Supreme Court ruling is wrong and doesn't protect women

He should learn some law. Even if the Supreme Court is "wrong", then you need an act of parliament to address the issue. They are barking up the wrong tree.

I am vaguely reminded of the moron on my SAC who insisted the law was wrong and that despite his accepting his guilt, he wasn't really as clearly the law needed changing. Like most men with enormous bollocks and tiny brains he collapsed when confronted by a grown up.

Of course those upset by the ruling aren't going to go anywhere near parliament and risk even more coverage in the press.

spannasaurus · 21/05/2025 15:15

Lalgarh · 21/05/2025 14:39

So here, Maugham is setting out a scenario of a "predatory cis man" pretending to be a * checks *... "Post op trans man" (unlike, say, a pre op trans woman) to explain why the Supreme Court ruling is wrong and doesn't protect women

https://x.com/faintlyfalling/status/1913504272152437245/photo/1

Um..?

Edited

The EA permits a transman to be excluded from female single sex facilities if their appearance could cause alarm so the service provider in Maughams example could exclude that person without needing to determine if they were a man or a transman

Needspaceforlego · 21/05/2025 15:04

Bannedontherun · 21/05/2025 14:45

If a man pretends to be a trans man (ie a woman who is trans) in a female space he can be challenged in the same way a man pretending to be a woman (a trans identifying man) can.

Still no men allowed, and what a dumb argument.

Edit- confused by what you meant.

lcakethereforeIam · 21/05/2025 14:58

The transman, post op., would have scars where her breasts were sliced off. Might be missing one or both nipples. Will have a massive scar on her arm, leg, buttock or stomach where the skin was removed to roll up into something that vaguely resembled a penis. This 'penis' would not be erect unless the tm wanted it to be. She'd have to manually inflate it.

I'm astonished. He's either flat out lying for an easily disprovable gotcha. I hope it's this. Or he's genuinely ignorant. He has a daughter who claims to be a boy. This could be her future. He should know this.

Bannedontherun · 21/05/2025 14:45

If a man pretends to be a trans man (ie a woman who is trans) in a female space he can be challenged in the same way a man pretending to be a woman (a trans identifying man) can.

Still no men allowed, and what a dumb argument.

Lalgarh · 21/05/2025 14:39

So here, Maugham is setting out a scenario of a "predatory cis man" pretending to be a * checks *... "Post op trans man" (unlike, say, a pre op trans woman) to explain why the Supreme Court ruling is wrong and doesn't protect women

https://x.com/faintlyfalling/status/1913504272152437245/photo/1

Um..?

https://x.com/faintlyfalling/status/1913504272152437245/photo/1

SerendipityJane · 21/05/2025 14:33

Bannedontherun · 21/05/2025 14:23

@SerendipityJane well we did when we were members of the EU.

The ERCHR, is not an EU Court it is a separate Court that has jurisdiction in Euroupe over the treaty of human rights conventions.

Although they have no power to enforce any rulings.

Parliament is supreme. There really is no higher power.

If Parliament chooses to be bound by a treaty it previously signed. then it it isn't. Of course if abrogating that treaty incurs consequences from other signatories then - as a sovereign power - the UK would be required to accept them.

I am sick and tired of people who clearly hate Britain doing our parliament down, and pretending it's some sort of second rate debating society that has to ask the headmasters permission to leave the room. Parliament is and has always been (since 1688) sovereign and supreme. And no tatty piece of paper it signs with anyone else can ever change that.

The UK has always been free to leave the ECHR. The UN. The Tufty club. The problem has been finding enough grown ups who would willingly do that and accept the consequences. Which clearly was the theme as the new millennium dawned. "How to have your cake and eat it".

Bannedontherun · 21/05/2025 14:23

@SerendipityJane well we did when we were members of the EU.

The ERCHR, is not an EU Court it is a separate Court that has jurisdiction in Euroupe over the treaty of human rights conventions.

Although they have no power to enforce any rulings.

SerendipityJane · 21/05/2025 10:18

ThatsNotMyTeen · 20/05/2025 21:23

No

they can find UK law is not compliant with the convention but they can’t change UK law

But, but, but .... that nice Mr Farage and Kemi Badenoch keep telling us that the UK is forced to follow foreign law. (I think. I have to admit I don't pay as much attention as I should.)

TheOtherRaven · 21/05/2025 09:15

Boldly advancing to the rear again.

Gattopardo · 21/05/2025 09:04

Did GLP fund that judicial review, or just support it in the broader sense?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 21/05/2025 07:26

If you read the actual judgment it's very obviously not a win for GLP but just a couple of nit picking points about two paragraphs in the Charity Commission report.

Conclusion
149. For the foregoing reasons, therefore, I allow the judicial review with respect to the two paragraphs in the Report which I have found to be irrational: (i) the failure to include within the Report the findings of Falk J with respect to the scrutiny by the trustees of expenditure on the ‘top 25’ clients (paragraph 45); and (ii) the implication at paragraph 51 of the Report that if the trustees had not made a decision to operate with a low level of reserves they might have been able to save the charity from insolvency (paragraph 51).
150. The remainder of the challenge is dismissed.

assets.caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d-915b8f8a-a6ef-45ec-b1e8-65a74d349848/d-915b8f8a-a6ef-45ec-b1e8-65a74d349848.pdf

Hermiaxx · 20/05/2025 21:51

@Lalgarh thanks for posting and yet again the fox killer seems to be happy to ignore the actual words used in the judgement! The Charity Commission is also claiming victory (although acknowledging they need to re-write two paragraphs of their report). The judge has yet to decide costs but understand he suggested it was difficult to see who was ‘the winner’.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 20/05/2025 21:23

Myalternate · 20/05/2025 10:21

Bit hesitant to ask this question but, will the ECtHR be able to override UK law🥴

No

they can find UK law is not compliant with the convention but they can’t change UK law

TheOtherRaven · 20/05/2025 15:55

Recognising that other people's legal protections would have to be abandoned to permit men the absolute freedom and primacy they wish was not 'corruption' though. Or evil.

To identify that those other groups' rights and equalities would necessarily be lost and yet still try to argue that this group of men's primacy was all that mattered would have been a good deal more corrupt and questionable.

SerendipityJane · 20/05/2025 14:35

Lawyers don't like it when you say they are all evil and our legal system is corrupt.

Which doesn't make it not true though.

TheOtherRaven · 20/05/2025 12:37

fromorbit · 20/05/2025 04:40

GLP continues to wins fans.

Simon Myerson KC 🎗️
The wisest and most eminent retired Supreme Court Judge, who specialised in Equality Act work at the Bar, before their appointment to the bench in 2001 & who regularly canvasses the views of the 25 most eminent silks, just said to me, “What the hell is Maugham on?”
Honest guv.

Lawyers don't like it when you say they are all evil and our legal system is corrupt. Not a great move when you are pursuing court cases against the legal system. If you are doing publicity stunts with no intention of winning though...

It is sinking in then that this is not a reasonable or rational movement.

The issue will be one that this lobby's leaders and loudest voices will never be able to understand or accept, which is that this is not all and only about them. Other people have rights too, and these legislations have to equally protect those other groups. This lobby does not see others or regard their needs and issues as of any importance.

However any court looking at this legislation will have to.

Another2Cats · 20/05/2025 12:19

SerendipityJane · 20/05/2025 11:54

And people with agendas don't ?

Much as I detest "AI" (because it isn't), AI or not, there is is always incumbent on the reader to ensure the veracity of what they are being fed. Which - sorry peeps - does mean you need some basic knowledge to begin with.

"...you need some basic knowledge to begin with."

And then you need to actually apply it.

There was a case last month in the High Court where a barrister had used AI to come up with a list of fake cases - including one that purported to be a Court of Appeal case.

A local authority was opposing a homelessness claim. They lost the claim but were successful in getting a wasted costs order against the claimant's solicitors and barrister.

The barrister had come up with five fake cases.

There's an interesting article about it here:

https://www.legalfutures.co.uk/latest-news/judge-condemns-lawyers-who-produced-fake-citations-to-court

and a link to the judgment here

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2025/1040.html

Judge condemns lawyers who produced "fake citations" to court

The High Court has ordered that a barrister and the solicitors who instructed her be referred to their regulators after providing five fake case citations in their pleadings.

https://www.legalfutures.co.uk/latest-news/judge-condemns-lawyers-who-produced-fake-citations-to-court

Hoydenish · 20/05/2025 12:05

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 19/05/2025 16:36

It's a dam, if you don't build it on a good foundation and be sure to block any leak that appears then it will collapse.

Sound foundation = using language correctly

The SC ruling as written = there are no leaks

Any edge case (... because they are “anatomically female” and therefore unsafe in male facilities ...) = deliberately poking a hole into it

The TRA approach means that no exceptions can be tolerated - the response has to be a hard no.

I really really don't want to be thinking about poking a hole in any kind of person tbh. 😬

SerendipityJane · 20/05/2025 11:54

ColourlessGreenIdeasSleepFuriously · 19/05/2025 18:43

ChatGPT makes shit up. Not a reliable source in the slightest

And people with agendas don't ?

Much as I detest "AI" (because it isn't), AI or not, there is is always incumbent on the reader to ensure the veracity of what they are being fed. Which - sorry peeps - does mean you need some basic knowledge to begin with.

LarkLaneAgain · 20/05/2025 11:17

Knotty it's not you, it's an own goal.

The GLP are endeavouring to centre themselves by claiming to have the magic key to make everything better again for the tra. (Also, there's money to be made).

Superficial legal bullshit might fool those of little brain over on the likes of Reddit. On FWR the likes of yourself and others, are pretty good at taking claims like this apart, and discovering there isn't anything of substance there at all.

None of the legal experts who actually are competent in this area, are taken in by the waffle. In MN terms, I think it's reasonable to wonder if someone at the GLP is on glue.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 20/05/2025 10:51

Myalternate · 20/05/2025 10:21

Bit hesitant to ask this question but, will the ECtHR be able to override UK law🥴

Yes & No. The ECtHR can find the UK is in breach of the convention but they then refer the case back to the UK. The UK may then pass law to remedy the situation or may choose to ignore the ruling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2025 10:37

KnottyAuty · 20/05/2025 09:53

Thank you for this summary. I have tried 3 times to extract meaning but there is so much extraneous detail that it defies understanding for the average person! One of the problems is that they don't have one single killer argument and that they are going for a pick and mix mud-slinging attempt in the hope that something sticks? Or it is just a publicity stunt?

Anyway here is my attempt - which I think gets to the same place as you but with a poorer understanding of the law?!

I got as far as understanding that their letter is a pre-action Judicial Review to challenge the EHRC Interim Update guidance. So it is not legal action appealing the Supreme Court judgment. This doesn't seem to be clearly understood over on Reddit. And if a JR is actually launched it would be on process, not outcome, so even if the EHRC process is found to be flawed, that may not affect their actual advice.

So far so good - no legal action on a procedural matter at the EHRC.

Next it seems they are claiming that part of the procedural problem relates to the consultation not including workplace toilets (and only covering services and associations)?

The letter only deals with GRC holders in workplace toilets. They haven't spelled that out to all the people chipping in to the fundraiser but I suppose they consider this a wedge issue so we can go around the genital inspection/toilet police loop again.

The GLP request seems to boil down to

  1. asking the Secretary of State for Women & Equalities to make the EHRC reverse/re-think their interim guidance - ie withdraw it, OR
  2. if the Secretary of State agrees that the law has been interpreted correctly that they make arrangements to amend the law to allow trans people to access their facilities of choice.

The sections of law they seem to suggest might need amending by Parliament (if applicable) would be:

  • the single sex provisions of the EA and/or
  • that tricky section 9 of the GRA "the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender" and/or
  • the HSE's requirement for separate toilets to be provided for men and women on the basis that the regs don't define male or female.

I can't imagine the Secretary of State will want to open up any of these laws.

Numerically unisex third spaces meets the needs of the largest combined subgroup - 75% of all trans people are non binary plus trans men. It is not in the TRA's interests for this figure to be widely discussed, but if they open up the Workplace Regs that is what will happen...

Is it just me or could this be an own goal?

Given the track record I’d suggest an “own goal” is definitely within the bounds of possibility.

Myalternate · 20/05/2025 10:21

Bit hesitant to ask this question but, will the ECtHR be able to override UK law🥴

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