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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Our organisation has just published its response to the Supreme Court ruling

35 replies

PoisonCrystal · 06/05/2025 09:34

It’s an Arms Length Body and it’s the usual carefully worded sitting-on-the-fence waffle, including needing to wait for the statutory guidance from the EHRC. I do wonder about my colleagues, though. In the comments was the following gem:

“Do we know how the court is defining ‘biological sex’? Genetically? Chromosomally? Hormonally? Aesthetically?”

Does someone now need to get a court ruling on the definition of sex? Then what? A definition of “human”?

OP posts:
bubblerabbit · 06/05/2025 11:01

GreenFriedTomato · 06/05/2025 10:52

@Another2Cats The transwoman claimed for maintenance but the man sought an annulment of the marriage (ie saying that the marriage had never happened) because, at that time, a marriage must be between a man and a woman.

Do you know if the man was unaware he was marrying a trans identified male at the time? Was this the reason for the annulment or was be just using this to get out of the marriage? How were they even able to marry at the time? Didn't you have to provide ID?

Arthur Corbett knew that April Ashley was male. He met him in a sex club in Paris that catered to men who had a specific sexual interest in cross dressing and transition. Corbett himself was a cross dresser.

The marriage took place abroad, not in the UK. The 'divorce' was after they returned, when Corbett's legal firm figured out that no divorce was needed.

Justme56 · 06/05/2025 10:58

I guess the next time someone refers to you as a cis woman you can ask if that is based on your genetic, hormonal or aesthetic sex.

GreenFriedTomato · 06/05/2025 10:52

@Another2Cats The transwoman claimed for maintenance but the man sought an annulment of the marriage (ie saying that the marriage had never happened) because, at that time, a marriage must be between a man and a woman.

Do you know if the man was unaware he was marrying a trans identified male at the time? Was this the reason for the annulment or was be just using this to get out of the marriage? How were they even able to marry at the time? Didn't you have to provide ID?

PoisonCrystal · 06/05/2025 10:35

I’m not planning on commenting back as I’m expecting the discussion to disappear soon. Another commenter has replied agreeing that it’s not a solid basis for human rights legislation because of “rights based on original birth certificates or ‘masculine appearance or attributes’ “ which helps explain the use of “Aesthetically” earlier. It seems it’s just another way of saying assigned at birth. But apparently it’s also “vibes-based in the present”: a really helpful guide indeed!

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 06/05/2025 10:10

If they come back with “well, what about intersex people, hmm?”, you could tell them that intersex is widely considered to be an outdated and offensive term to describe the people they are talking about, and then show them the NHS guidance on DSDs, which confirms that even people with DSDs have a sex listed on their birth certificates.

nhs.uk

Differences in sex development

Find out about differences in sex development (DSDs), a group of rare conditions where the reproductive organs and genitals don't develop as expected. Some people prefer to use the term intersex.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

Another2Cats · 06/05/2025 10:09

“Do we know how the court is defining ‘biological sex’? Genetically? Chromosomally? Hormonally? Aesthetically?”

If you really want to raise your head above the parapet and answer that, then the SC cited a case from 1970 called Corbett v Corbett (otherwise Ashley).

A man had married a post-op transwoman in 1963. They then split up 14 days later.

The transwoman claimed for maintenance but the man sought an annulment of the marriage (ie saying that the marriage had never happened) because, at that time, a marriage must be between a man and a woman.

The court ruled that the transwoman was a man and that sex at birth cannot be changed.

The court went on to say that determining sex was down to just three things:

(i) Chromosomal factors.
(ii) Gonadal factors (ie presence or absence of testes or ovaries).
(iii) Genital factors (including internal sex organs).

and nothing else, so not hormonal factors or psychological factors.

This case has been cited with approval on a number of occasions over the last 50 years. It is pretty much well accepted.

This is why the SC said at para 171:

"Although the word “biological” does not appear in this definition, the ordinary meaning of those plain and unambiguous words corresponds with the biological characteristics that make an individual a man or a woman. These are assumed to be self-explanatory and to require no further explanation."

LonginesPrime · 06/05/2025 10:06

It was defined as sex at birth (i.e. on their original birth certificate) in section 7 of the SC ruling.

Everyone knows what their own original birth certificate says, so there can be no excuse.

senua · 06/05/2025 10:00

“Do we know how the court is defining ‘biological sex’? Genetically? Chromosomally? Hormonally? Aesthetically?”

Comment back: I know. It's like when you have to decide if someone is being disingenuous or just plain stupid.
Grin

MarieDeGournay · 06/05/2025 09:52

What is the meaning of life?'

'Well, it depends on how you define 'the'.'🙄

GreenFriedTomato · 06/05/2025 09:49

Aesthetical biology. That's new to me.

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