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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anyone else think Trump will ultimately do more damage to the gender critical cause?

241 replies

savehannah · 20/02/2025 09:18

I hear lots of gender critical Americans (especially despairing parents of trans-identified children) cheering Trump's changes on the gender front, and on the face of it, things like not prosecuting parents for non-affirmation of transgender status and not allowing schools to secretly socially transition pupils seem like progress.

However, since Trump is also anti-homosexual, anti-abortion and anti-reproductive (and other) rights for women, I feel this will just lead to even more of a backlash.

Gender critical people have been trying for a long time to show themselves to be on 'the right side of history' and it felt like this was starting to become realised by more and more people (at least in the UK), that it's not just right-wing nutters that believe in the importance of biological reality.

But now gender critical beliefs are being pushed hard as part of hard right-wing policy alongside lots of unacceptable things, doesn't this lend more credence to the idea of the tolerant left being correct, and mean that people who believe tolerance means stamping on women's rights and allowing lifelong medicalisation of troubled teens feel vindicated in pushing hard back the other way?

And again conflating LGB with T, something which UK gender critical groups have tried to separate. Trump hates them all and wants to take away their rights so they are all a marginalised minority and need to fight together against the fascism. Rather than people realising in many ways the trans righrs movement is homophobic, 'trans away the gay' etc.

OP posts:
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thatsthewayitis · 22/02/2025 22:18

President Obama sacked over 550 military officers including the Joint Chief of Staff, he wanted military whose politics aligned with his. It's within the power of the Executive.
President Trump has done similarly, firing those who imposed DEI and don't agree with his principles, which won him the election.

But don't worry we have a fab Attorney General in Pam Bondi and Kash Patel is in charge of the FBI and Tulsi Gabbard in charge of National Intelligence.
Are they female enough and or brown enough to please you?

IwantToRetire · 22/02/2025 19:44

This happened to day.

Gen Brown was the second black officer to hold the post, the holder of which advises both the president and the secretary of defence on national security.

US Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth had previously said that Gen Brown should be fired because of his "woke" focus on diversity, equity and inclusion programmes in the military.

Later on Friday, Hegseth announced the firings of two additional senior officers: Chief of Naval Operations Adm Lisa Franchetti and Vice Chief of Staff of the Air Force Gen Jim Slife.

Adm Franchetti was the first woman to lead the US Navy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyr2xvn4dpo

And the way it was announced amounted to saying they had got the positions they had not through merit but by being falsely promoted by DEI initiatives.

By the way I think Trump is so lacking in ethics or consistency that it is just as likely he went along with these sackings to ingratiate himself with some of the more lunatic fringe of the Republican Party than he actually cares.

In some way that is worse ie that he will sell out anyone to keep himself as the winner.

IwantToRetire · 22/02/2025 19:34

The spin you are putting on it is really inappropriate IMO.

I haven't put a spin on it.

You have decided I am in the wrong because (without in fact saying whether I agree or not) I have said what I understand Trump to be saying.

And also you aren't right about the UK.

WillIEverBeOk · 22/02/2025 18:03

Breezeblock · 22/02/2025 17:50

Are you actually reading my posts? I’ve said that I’m gender critical and I’m concerned that Trump is not going to be a long-term benefit to our cause and have explained why. Obviously, you can disagree with that and it’s fine, but it’s abundantly clear that my concern is for women’s rights and spaces. A convicted sexual abuser and felon who is in part responsible for the removal of women’s reproductive rights, that has resulted in women’s deaths, is not likely to do our cause any good in the long-term. Or the short term, let’s be honest.

Edited

Fair enough.

BabaYagasHouse · 22/02/2025 17:59

IwantToRetire · 21/02/2025 00:56

Sort of related but WoLF are keeping a list which gets updated as to which of Trumps EO are being challenged by court cases etc..
https://womensliberationfront.org/news/trumps-executive-orders-head-to-the-courts

Thank you!
This is very useful

Breezeblock · 22/02/2025 17:50

WillIEverBeOk · 22/02/2025 17:43

When its convenient to you. But just not womens rights to single sex spaces.

Are you actually reading my posts? I’ve said that I’m gender critical and I’m concerned that Trump is not going to be a long-term benefit to our cause and have explained why. Obviously, you can disagree with that and it’s fine, but it’s abundantly clear that my concern is for women’s rights and spaces. A convicted sexual abuser and felon who is in part responsible for the removal of women’s reproductive rights, that has resulted in women’s deaths, is not likely to do our cause any good in the long-term. Or the short term, let’s be honest.

WillIEverBeOk · 22/02/2025 17:43

Breezeblock · 22/02/2025 17:28

That old chestnut, or just care about women’s rights?

When its convenient to you. But just not womens rights to single sex spaces.

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 17:34

thatsthewayitis · 22/02/2025 15:22

Are you willing to die in Ukraine or your children? How about coming for a visit while missile and drones are dropping? This has been going on for 3 years.
A peace deal is a good thing.
Please state exactly with the articles where the Constitution is being subverted.
It's amazing when Clinton or Obama fired workers or generals as President it was a legitimate exercise of their executive powers.

Europe has long known that it was likely that America would pull out of Ukraine at some point.

However, Trump actively supports Putin, repeating his taking points.

Re: constitution, giving Musk control of expenditure decisions that need approval from congress.

Trump is selling you what you want to hear in the same way that he has sold fake university courses and dodgy business deals. He doesn't care about the outcome, as long as he can take some cash and extract himself before it all goes pear shaped.

Breezeblock · 22/02/2025 17:28

WillIEverBeOk · 22/02/2025 08:53

Wow, you're quite aggressive!

That old chestnut, or just care about women’s rights?

SionnachRuadh · 22/02/2025 15:33

TempestTost · 22/02/2025 13:30

I've heard a few black Americans in the last year or so criticize the way Obama talks to black audiences, using a fake accent and language. I think one even suggested that he practices in the mirror.

I am not sure that's 100% fair about either of them, most people unconsciously change their speech with differernt groups. And Harris in particular when to a black college so if she is the kind of person who picks up speech patterns she might well have done there. Obama though, it seems less likely, he was raised by a white mum outside the US to a large extent.

Absolutely, I know I modulate my speech depending on the audience. I think the giveaway is when it doesn't sound natural. Like hearing Biden speak to black audiences, and his speech is peppered with "ain't" and "y'all" when he never talks like that otherwise.

Republicans have their own version of this, but it's usually people from elite backgrounds trying to sound working class.

I think audiences can pick up on when it's fake. Though they might tolerate the fakeness from a politician who can do stuff for them.

thatsthewayitis · 22/02/2025 15:22

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 14:53

Siding with murderous dictators like Putin. Openly trying to subvert the constitution.

Good Luck America.

Are you willing to die in Ukraine or your children? How about coming for a visit while missile and drones are dropping? This has been going on for 3 years.
A peace deal is a good thing.
Please state exactly with the articles where the Constitution is being subverted.
It's amazing when Clinton or Obama fired workers or generals as President it was a legitimate exercise of their executive powers.

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 14:56

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 14:53

Siding with murderous dictators like Putin. Openly trying to subvert the constitution.

Good Luck America.

And to be honest I don't think he thinks much about either Putin or the constitution. It's all just a TV performance.

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 14:53

thatsthewayitis · 22/02/2025 13:22

I know supporting free speech, stopping mass migration, trying to broker peace bringing down the 2 Trillion dollar debt will make a lot of the elite class abroad very unhappy.

Siding with murderous dictators like Putin. Openly trying to subvert the constitution.

Good Luck America.

TempestTost · 22/02/2025 13:45

IwantToRetire · 21/02/2025 17:46

I dont think any Democrats are claiming the high ground.

They are only too aware that their failure has landed the US with this man who boasts about how he is the supreme leader, who has no need to be accountable and hasadopted the cartoon of him as a king - in a country that was created out of getting rid of being run by a monarch.

Perhaps the US needs to bring in a law that anyone standing for president has to take an exam to show they understand the US constitution.

Ironically the Democrats could benefit out of this, because as Trump gets more and more extreme even Republican politicians are critical of the things he is saying or doing. So his extremism gives the Democrats a rallying point as a potential alternative. But whether they are competent to run an effective campaign against Trump will be the ultimate test.

It is far more likely that Trump will lose not because of his global grandstanding, but if cuts to welfare and medicare, medicaid impact republican voters. Already some of the "Latino" voters who switched to him are saying they didn't vote for him to tear their families apart.

I think this is a misunderstanding about what the real argument is in the US.

Id Pol, and affirmative action, have gone in a really different direction in the US (and Canada) than the UK.

In the UK you can't discriminate on the basis of protected characteristics - that's not a one sided thing. You can't put out a job advertisement for white people only, nor one for blacks or Asians or whatever.

That's not at all the case in the US, programs are not just trying to encourage women, or others, into sectors or education where they haven't been common. They are doing things like accepting candidates with lower qualifications, or race quotas, tying funding to race.

A heck of a lot of people in the US have a problem with this and want it firmly squashed. And that's not just white people who benefit from the patriarchy or whatever you want to say - in fact these policies are most popular with white people, and especially white women. Black and Hispanic people don't especially support them.

The spin you are putting on it is really inappropriate IMO.

TempestTost · 22/02/2025 13:30

SionnachRuadh · 21/02/2025 09:20

@TempestTost

It's back to this omnicause business. If someone has some kind of issue with illegal immigrants, or for that matter legal ones, that is not the same as racism. Even if their reasons are stupid. (It could also be anti-outsider. Or just not a fan of the immigration policies. )

Lots of us noticed during the campaign how Harris would roll out a new accent for a different audience. A variety of very fake Southern accents for black audiences, a fake Mexican accent for Hispanic audiences. She's a woman from San Francisco who grew up in Canada, and none of that was convincing.

You often find this with Democrat politicians talking to minority audiences. They adjust their accent and dumb down their vocabulary. Biden does it, Hillary does it, AOC does it. Even Obama doesn't talk to a black audience the way he talks to a mainly white audience.

I wonder how this kind of thing would go down in different contexts, like straight men playing camp for a gay audience.

I'm not saying Trump is exactly popular with minorities, though more so than people think, but I think minorities appreciate that he doesn't pander or talk down to them. He speaks exactly the same to everyone, the same way that he's always wearing the dark suit and the big red tie.

I've heard a few black Americans in the last year or so criticize the way Obama talks to black audiences, using a fake accent and language. I think one even suggested that he practices in the mirror.

I am not sure that's 100% fair about either of them, most people unconsciously change their speech with differernt groups. And Harris in particular when to a black college so if she is the kind of person who picks up speech patterns she might well have done there. Obama though, it seems less likely, he was raised by a white mum outside the US to a large extent.

TempestTost · 22/02/2025 13:23

MarsScarlet · 21/02/2025 03:52

@TempestTost

It is really not good to use the word racism for things that aren't about race.

It's back to this omnicause business. If someone has some kind of issue with illegal immigrants, or for that matter legal ones, that is not the same as racism. Even if their reasons are stupid. (It could also be anti-outsider. Or just not a fan of the immigration policies. )

Could a person have an issue with immigrants because of their race, sure. But that's not a necessary condition.

Except that by making comments like "They're eating the cats" Trump reduces this particular group of people into a scourge that must be feared and removed from civilised society. It was clearly about a particular group of people (Haitians) doing particular practices (cooking dinner with captured animals). He said these things without any solid proof of his claims. That type of rhetoric is racist.

Also racist is the Trump administration change to the term 'illegal immigrant' - now 'illegal alien'. They are completely depersonalised.

Yes, it was a crazy statement about a group of immigrants.

The issue was they were immigrants who, according to the story, were not able to buy food as they had no jobs, and so were eating pet.

That is not a racist claim, any more than it would be racist if it was a group of Polish people.

It seems like you don't know what the word racism means.

thatsthewayitis · 22/02/2025 13:22

LovelySunnyDayToday · 22/02/2025 13:09

Also THIS! 💯

I know supporting free speech, stopping mass migration, trying to broker peace bringing down the 2 Trillion dollar debt will make a lot of the elite class abroad very unhappy.

LovelySunnyDayToday · 22/02/2025 13:09

Discombobble · 20/02/2025 09:24

I’m slightly more concerned about the damage he’s doing to the world

Also THIS! 💯

LovelySunnyDayToday · 22/02/2025 13:08

Agreed op. He's all about hate and bigotry. There are plenty left wing GCs who don't want to erase trans people, they just want to protect the rights of women & girls.

I'm not going to applaud his bigotry for one second!

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 12:03

SionnachRuadh · 22/02/2025 11:47

If you're rewriting legislation to cater to women who believe they're men but are also aware enough of their female biology to use IVF to get pregnant... that way madness lies.

Some old legislation might need rewording to take account of lesbian couples, but I can't imagine this is being driven by lesbian mothers clamouring to be designated as "inseminated persons".

As 'progressive' American women voluntarily give away their right to be defined as a class, it's not surprising that America lags behind other countries when it comes to maternity and birth control rights.

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 11:59

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 11:51

This might be different in the US/UK.

In the UK 'mother' in this sense has a specific meaning - the person who gives birth. It defines her legal relationship with the baby.

Also, I have no problem whatsoever with 'de-gendering', but I think the removal of sexed words does the opposite.

Particularly when used in a medical or legal sense, 'Mother' and 'Woman' are necessary gender neutral words that simply refer to an adult human female and her relationship to her children. Similarly 'breast'. These words should not be confused with stereotypical expectations of behaviour or dress.

Merrymouse · 22/02/2025 11:51

knitnerd90 · 22/02/2025 10:00

Well first off the law is clearly being written to allow for same sex couples, since "husband" gets rewritten as "spouse." And at the moment, the law does recognise trans men. Who do get inseminated. If they wrote woman it would create a loophole. I don't see any way to fix this law independently. As much as I think the de-gendering of everything surrounding pregnancy and birth has gone too far, you can't separate the laws like that.

This won't have been drafted by a legislator either; they actually have legal professionals in state legislatures to do the wording.

This might be different in the US/UK.

In the UK 'mother' in this sense has a specific meaning - the person who gives birth. It defines her legal relationship with the baby.

SionnachRuadh · 22/02/2025 11:47

If you're rewriting legislation to cater to women who believe they're men but are also aware enough of their female biology to use IVF to get pregnant... that way madness lies.

Some old legislation might need rewording to take account of lesbian couples, but I can't imagine this is being driven by lesbian mothers clamouring to be designated as "inseminated persons".

WillIEverBeOk · 22/02/2025 11:38

MarsScarlet · 22/02/2025 11:02

@Chersfrozenface

Why "inseminated person"?

The poster had an issue with 'inseminated person' - specifically that the word 'mother' wasn't being used. The image gives that reason. With ICSI and/or surrogacy, they may not indeed be the "mother".

If the person is inseminated, they are a woman. Thus mother. Only a female ie mother, can be inseminated. Its not a man being inseminated.

Its a woman. And if that woman has a baby, she is a mother. There is no other alternative.

Shortshriftandlethal · 22/02/2025 11:09

Breezeblock · 22/02/2025 06:01

I totally agree. I’m GC because I believe in biological reality and I care about women and children (and vulnerable men) that are sold a crock and are damaged as a result of this ideology, have their spaces invaded and their families / bodies destroyed.

Trump gives not a single shit about anyone other than himself. He’s already responsible for setting women and children’s rights back decades. Associating GC with the hard right does nothing to educate on the valid concerns and provide mental health care and support to those impacted by it. It just creates division and hate and makes us look like bigots.

Edited

I suggest it would be better to be less concerned with what people think about you, and being overly focused on Trump as a personality - and more concerned with speaking the truth and standing up for reality and for the dignity of women and girls.. Whatever you do, or don't do, those who are firmly embedded in their tribal way of thinking will still consider you to be a 'right wing fascist'. You can't pander to their bigotry and prejudice.