Persuading a TA to change her mind

It's not only in the arts etc.where one is in danger of losing jobs. Nurse Peggie works for the NHS. Maya Forstater was nowhere near the arts. Everywhere has been captured and it's going to take a while to get them unhooked.

I'm certainly not denying other people's experience and it's tragic for those families. I only meant it's not my personal experience with my adult child, we're very close thankfully. There are so many points of view on all this that all need listening to.

It's been the experience of quite a few people I know.

It's awful to watch happening in slow motion to family members who have bent over backwards for it only to be slapped in the face with rejection and really unfair criticism.

It's funny how this isn't acknowledged as a common outcome... It's ALWAYS regarded as the fault of the family without question. (Which is part of the reason this is a taboo subject - those families feel they have failed in someway or feel they will be judged over the whole situation).

Please don't deny the reality of others because it's beyond your experience.

Ok, that's not been my experience though

It's just the way it came across to me. Perhaps I'm wrong. OP seems to have left the building anyway.

My experience is it's very often NOT the family doing banishment. And they have NOT been anti-trans or anything but supportive.

It's the trans person that does the rejecting because the very existence of their family is an inconvenient reminder of their past. And they just want to run away from themselves. Which of course is impossible but rejecting your family is the next closest thing.

LarasLupins. We don't know really what type of relationship the OP had.

There seems to be some confused hurt in the posts that I have read that the OP might also need to get answers on. To me, I read OP's posts not as OP going up to have it out with this woman, but to have a discussion about why she was blocked after all this time.

Not saying this to be contrary, but why would it be accosting if the OP mentions it but a healthy debate if the other woman wants to start one? Doesn't that indicate a negative judgement about the OP.

I think it's such an emotional subject on both sides, and both sides need to listen to each other. I would be incredibly upset if OP harangued me in the street and tried to force her views on me. I'm just trying to do the best I can in the situation and offering love and support. I don't think any extreme view that blocks out all others can be good. I'm not meaning you @Helleofabore or you @Greyskybluesky . It just seems extreme to me to be considering accosting this woman as OP doesn't know why she has blocked her. A healthy debate if the other woman starts one is a completely different matter.

I agree Helleofabore, it's one of two popular (and sometimes amusing) misconceptions. The other being "GCs obviously have a sad, empty and lonely life with nothing better to do than persecute trans people all day".

Erm, nope! Sorry to disappoint. I have a fulfilling and happy life and I want all women and girls to have that too without certain male bodied people encroaching on our spaces, services and sports!

I agree @LarasLupins it's 100% the other woman's right to step away

The 'you don't know any trans people' is indeed a common gotcha that always fails. Because this is mumsnet and many posters do indeed know people with transgender identities.

Of course, for some posters it is far easier to dismiss an opinion if they can miscategorise it as hateful and bigoted, as what happens on other social media platforms. And part of that misclassification revolves around the belief that none of us know any people who have transgender identities and are therefore ignorant.

Instead of taking the time to understand the points of view, to ask questions and ask what people have read or experienced to understand the point of view, some posters do feel that having read somewhere that MNer are ignorant transphobes who hate transgender people.

I am also the mother of a trans person. I wouldn't want to engage with OP on FB either.

I do wonder what people would do if they were actually faced with this issue when they hold such strong GC views.

This is such a misconception though. I'm not meaning to target you, Lara, it's just that this sentence sums up my point really well.

We are faced with this issue. Posters on here are the mothers, sisters, daughters, aunties, fathers and friends of trans people. That's what informs our experience. And, yes, our pro-women views.

It's uncomfortable for TRAs (again, not aimed at you Lara) to acknowledge that. It's easier to say that all "GCs" live in a trans-free bubble, do you actually know any trans people is a common gotcha remark.

Yes. We do.

Fair enough. I just think it needs a bit more nuanced thought, OP wanted to go in all guns blazing, without it seemed, considering possible reasons why this woman might have blocked her. And I do wonder what people would do if they were actually faced with this issue when they hold such strong GC views. A bit of give on both sides would be helpful.

Yes I mostly agree with you on that, but that wasn't what you said in your previous post which was an unfair and unfounded statement.

And OP presumably doesn't know anything about this woman's life yet she wants to accost her in the street and try to force her views on her. The woman may have very good reasons for not wanting to engage with OP. She's made it clear she doesn't agree with with OP by blocking her so OP should respect her and not try to convert her unless this woman herself wants a discussion about the subject. I

That's really below the belt. You don't know anything about the OP other than what she's posted on here.

You are right. There is no comparison between a teenager making a decision about their diagnosed physical medical condition that has a bank of knowledge behind it to give some evidence based advice about and one making a decision about their personal identity that they wish to modify their body to fit their ideal.

Why would anyone banish their adult child from their lives ? Is that how people expect families to deal with differences in philosophical beliefs?

Just out of interest what would you do if your beloved adult DC was trans? Would you banish them from your lives forever? Because you sound so fanatical I fear you would.

Don't engage.

She's entrenched. She's not someone you can get to change their mind. She's irrelevant.

The people who are relevant are all the people who haven't defriended you. They are not closed minded.

The game is to win receptive allies not to go to war with someone who will never listen.

Why are some adults so keen to push that children can consent to procedures that will keep them pre pubescent and make them infertile to fix a non-physical and potentially (and realistically) not even medical condition?

What are the benefits to those children? Why do we think this is a good solution?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but turner's syndrome results in undeveloped ovaries, hence the lack of puberty.

So.....the chances are, a child with turner's is already infertile, with or without her ovaries being removed.

Edit - just looked it up. A very small number of girls with turner's are able to have kids naturally, so yes, there may have been some possibility of fertility. No mention of numbers, just the words "very small number" on the NHS website.

I'm assuming surgical removal is to ensure nothing nasty occurs in the underdeveloped ovaries, and to allow hormone replacement therapy to go ahead safely, to allow for growth.

Still.
Not.
The.
Same.
Thing.
As.
Trans.

I think there is a difference between a treatment for a diagnosed difference of sex development and a treatment to modify someone's body to fit their philosophical belief.

I don't believe the two are comparable and I am not sure why someone's difference in sex development has been used as a comparison.

No it wasn't in her head. But she was allowed to consent, as a minor, to surgery that left her infertile for life, when the alternative was to not have surgery which would cause her no physical harm whatsoever and only have mental health effects because she didn't want to be short or look prepubescent.

Aren't those the exact points people are using to argue that a minor can't consent to gender affirming care?

Too young to be able to actually consent to infertility for life

Other course if action - do nothing - causes zero physical harm. Just accept it and get over it.

Using the logic GC posters are arguing with here @Occasionalnamechanger s sister should have been told, you're fine, you're just going to mature later than usual and be short. Get over it.