JKR poem to IW - Brilliant

@OldCrone "I know you've said that you don't really understand logical argument, but try to get your head round this."

Eh? I don't think I said that.

Agree with your second para. I would never say these things IRL.

You wrote: "Well, no, they're not actually stopping them, but people like you are discouraging them with your assertion that there is something in girls' brains that makes them less likely to be good at science."

No, if I had a daughter or a female student who showed interest in a STEM topic, I'd encourage and cheerlead them all the way. It's 100 percent possible for a woman to be a brilliant scientist. I'm saying that, due to the crazily uneven sex numbers in those fields, I always assumed there were female-leaning and male-leaning brains - but I also knew that this this doesn't necessarily apply to individuals, as people are so varied.

And yes, maybe I am part of the problem. I'm open and willing to learn.

Umm. I used to work on my own car as teen. I have also worked as a landscaper and do a huge proportion of the DIY at our house. I would suggest that a lot of that comes from exposure to such things as a child and not being able to afford to have someone else do these things.

And I know fathers who took the decision to work their jobs around child care. However in my experience it is usually the male people in the families who earn the most so therefore the family finances are skewed towards the male staying working full time and the female people taking on the brunt of the caring if they don’t opt for childcare. And that lower pay is usually the result of systemic negative sex discrimination.

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

It takes a long, long time to unwind the long held societal view that women can only be teachers, nurses or mothers.

I can see how it has an impact to an extent, yes. But if I really wanted to study physics, I don't think disapproval would stop me. I don't think it would get in the way of my love for a subject. I'd reason that I want to study physics, not start a meth lab, and that the disapproval is completely weird and unreasonable since studying physics is clearly a positive thing.

But maybe some are more prone to being influenced.

Having said that, I did internalise the boy-sport thing and never played football again, even though I loved it when the girls were allowed to play it one day only at primary. I was only 10 though.

Exactly this.

@ThisFluentBiscuit you are part of the problem.

Here are two of your comments.

I've been very clear that on the individual level women can make top scientists etc. I said that the uneven numbers can be seen at the population level, and that I'm unsure it's all down to socialisation.

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

I know you've said that you don't really understand logical argument, but try to get your head round this.

First you say that the fact that women are underrepresented in science isn't all down to socialisation (implying that you believe in ladybrains as generally unsuited to science). Every time someone like you makes a comment like this which is read or heard by a girl, you are discouraging girls from being scientists by implying that they're not suited to it (just like spannasaurus's physics teacher - and mine, incidentally, back in the 70s).

Then you ask why girls don't just do science anyway, because no one is stopping them. Well, no, they're not actually stopping them, but people like you are discouraging them with your assertion that there is something in girls' brains that makes them less likely to be good at science.

Well, like I said, perhaps I'm wrong. I'll be honest with you - I'm post-50 and I'm REALLY struggling with the idea that there's no such thing as brains that are more female and brains that are more male, and that each type usually corresponds to the rest of the body's sex. During my formative years that was pretty much a given, and it seemed to be backed up in every aspect of life, and still now from what I observe. How many women fix the family cars? How many husbands and wives are so frustrated with each other's ways, because they're so different? How many men would prefer the nurturing role of giving up their careers and staying home with the kids?

Perhaps the above is ALL due to patriarchy, sexism, misogyny etc. and none of it is down to any innate male/female tendencies at all. It's just such a massive leap from what I've taken for granted all my life.

(And yes, if one subscribes to the idea of overall male/female brains, it's a short step from there to believing that you could end up with a brain/body mismatch.)

It's funny, when I read you all on here, I'm open to what you say about this brain stuff, but when I walk away from my laptop, my long-held beliefs snap back like an elastic that wants to return to its normal position.

OH MY GOD - perhaps it IS all social conditioning!! It's so strong! 😱

This FluentBiscuit - you post this:

Jesus, that's terrible about them being told they are boys' subjects only, even today.

And then you post this:

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

And you can't understand why (1) has an impact on (2)?

Girls are both directly and indirectly discouraged from studying STEM subjects.

People like you who think that women don't have a natural tendency for STEM subjects are one of the reasons why girls are put off STEM subjects

Yes. There is a good reason people
are worried about girls/ young women today. The repercussions from the teachings about ‘what is a girl and what is a boy’ and you might be a girl / boy if is being hugely pushed back on.

And ‘wrong body’. We have had plenty of parents over the past few years come to this board and tell us their young primary schoolers are distressed because they heard they could be born in the wrong body and could be the opposite sex because they like certain things.

But these stereotypes never really left unfortunately. Instead they became set in some children’s content, and in some instances a diagnosis tool for some activists. To be fair, any instance of an activist coming into schools to ‘teach’ their content rather than an experienced teacher for the age group is problematic. But it has and is happening.

Well, I'm not talking about all women. The things you can see on a population level can disappear entirely at the individual level.

Yes, could totally be down to personalities and not sex-based differences in brains. I certainly don't have all the answers!

Well, like I said, maybe I am wrong. I would have to do a lot more reading.

Why are females are still so vastly under-represented in the STEM subjects and careers today? Why don't more girls just study those subjects anyway, if that's what they want to do? Nobody is actually stopping them.

When you say ‘tendencies’, do you really mean ‘personalities’?

Because I have two male children, both into science / maths / engineering and yet at different ends of the emotional intelligence spectrum. Same nature, same nurture, just different personalities.

@ThisFluentBiscuit Which is a contradiction of your first claim that it is because female brains just aren't up to the task and that those 'lady' brains can be found inside the heads of males which makes the males females really.

Seriously, do you know how hard women have fought throughout the centuries to dispel the patriarchal myth that women just can't do things due to their inferior brains - like rule, have an education, vote, have a bank account, own property, etc., and here you are repeating that trope to try and justify males wanting to be women and have access to everything and take everything women have fought so damn hard for.

But you are saying that lady brains are less capable of understanding STEM subjects so you do agree with my physics teacher.

To be clear, he was talking about all women when he made that comment

Jesus, that's terrible about them being told they are boys' subjects only, even today.

Only anecdotes, but I know two high-flying STEM women, fwiw. One is an oncologist specialising in proton radiation, and she's perfectly empathetic. The other is a high-level computer scientist and she's a walking stereotype - not empathetic and totally oblivious to social cues.

@GailBlancheViola

"Sexism is the reason that, say, a STEM degree is valued higher than a humanities degree by many.
And why do you think that is?"

I said why in the first sentence - sexism.

Not mutually exclusive and not cause and effect, but tendencies.

I've been very clear that on the individual level women can make top scientists etc. I said that the uneven numbers can be seen at the population level, and that I'm unsure it's all down to socialisation.

Sorry, but what a load of cobblers.

Being logical and methodical is not mutually exclusive with being empathic and having emotional intelligence.

Well quite LadyBracknellsHandbagg.

Those damn lady brains and their inclinations or lack of.

@GailBlancheViola I had absolutely no idea that it’s simply down to women being ‘inclined towards STEM’ in order to solve the problem, here’s me thinking it was down to misogyny and poverty and racism when we should just jolly well sort out our inclination!
I wonder if we could apply the same ‘logic’ towards the epidemic of male violence towards women and girls, surely if women just weren’t inclined to be raped and murdered, the problem would just magically disappear 🤦‍♀️

I love JK but I wish she'd ignore the little shit (easy for me to say).
The only thing they're famous for is arguing with Rowling. He bloody loves it. Let him descend into total obscurity.

You seem to be contradicting yourself, you confidently say this:

If there's no such thing as male and female brains, why are the vast majority of engineers men? Why aren't there more female mathematicians? Of course, individual women can make top engineers and mathematicians, but there are far fewer of them at the population level than there are male ones.

Men and women behave so differently and have such different preferences that I can never understand why people try to deny there are sex differences in the brain. At least in general, even if it doesn't apply to every individual. Many parents who have raised both a boy and a girl end up convinced of such.

And when people come back and point out to you the reasons why there weren't/aren't more women engineers and mathematicians and posters come back and show you why and why those there were/are are not more known about you come back with this:

I do think that sexism has something to do with it. And what your physics teacher said is terrible. Like I said before, as individuals women can absolutely have fine STEM brains. Bletchley Park and the stories in Hidden Figures are examples.
But if females as a population were just as inclined towards STEM as males, I don't think there would be such a huge disparity in the numbers. I do think that sexism has something to do with it, but I don't think it explains the massive differences. IMHO, it's odd to see such a disparity without some biological underpinning to it.

Patriarchy, misogyny, sexism and indeed social class has everything to do with it.

But perhaps I am wrong. Those are just my thoughts, and I'm not a scientist or a researcher in the field.

Yes you are wrong.

I'm good at arts and humanities and not good at maths and science. I don't think that that makes my brain lesser at all. I have much better spelling ability and writing ability than most people I've met who are good at STEM. And I find it easier to empathise, as well. Many people I know who are engineers seem to be somewhat robotic and clueless when it comes to emotions. STEM brains are not better than non-STEM brains. They have different areas of strengths and weaknesses.

My mother-in-law had a phenomenal mathematical brain. What could she have done with that if she hadn't been forced to leave school at 14 and go into the prescribed female sphere of work relevant to her social class? My father-in-law had a phenomenal arts/classics brain, academically very gifted but he too had to leave school at 14 and go to work in a manual field as that was what men of his social class did. Both of them showed their true potential during the war but were of course side-lined afterwards. Neither were unempathetic, far from it and both would knock most people into a cocked hat with their spelling and writing ability.

That is 100% factual, not a mere generalisation.

Sexism is the reason that, say, a STEM degree is valued higher than a humanities degree by many.

And why do you think that is?