Infant mortality rises in US states with abortion bans

Many of these states have some of the highest poverty rates

Even if a baby, born with life limiting or severe problems, might possibly survive, then many families have no way of affording care

The BBC was reporting on the findings of a study by researchers at John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, published 13/2/25 and is a statistical analysis of infant mortality from 2012, well before the ruling on Roe vs Wade and 2023, the year after the ruling

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2830298

What, precisely makes it "garbage"?

We're not talking about healthy babies here. You're ignoring that point. These babies will not survive, even if they are born at full term.

Nobody is waiting until 23 weeks to terminate a pregnancy, if they have the choice.

A baby can survive at 24 weeks. Would you be okay with terminating a pregnancy at 23 weeks? I'm really trying not to be graphic but do you have any idea what that would look like?

All life is valuable. Whether that life lasts one minute or one century.

I've avoided responding up to now but OPs tirade full of name calling is fine against me but I know for 100% fact that if I responded with the same attitude from my point of view, I'd be instantly banned.

When it can survive outside the womb. The infant mortality rate has gone up because babies, who have conditions and deformities that make them incompatible with life, are being born.

Lots of other people have @ you to explain this.

You should have just @ me.

When exactly does this so called fetus become a baby then?

And the US already ranked 33 of 38 OECD countries. Already shockingly poor. Maybe they can make 38 of 38 if they array on.

You'd think all those people who care sooooo much about babies would focus on that. If it wasn't secretly all about punishing women.

Oh it definitely won’t have gone up at all! All those kind caring men in charge of this and all those people with their pro life banners will obviously be taking in all the babies born due to abortion not being available…..

I wonder if the rates of children put into care at birth have also gone up? You would assume so.

@GrettaGreen

If a man came onto any board on here and said that women belong in the kitchen and were only good for cooking and cleaning, he would be treated with overt derision and robustly challenged by lots of posters.

I respect the view that women should be legally forced to give birth to a baby against their will just as much as I respect the views of the hypothetical man I just mentioned. That is to say, I don't respect those opinions at all.

I'll continue to treat them with overt derision and challenge both, despite not thinking it will change their minds. Because I think it's the right thing to do and also because I think it's important that readers who may be on the fence, or may believe lies or falsehoods those posters use to bolster their arguments, see the other side of the debate.

What kind of debate is there left to have? You can write out all the facts and figures, present them with so many real examples of babies and women suffering and they'll still scream "baby murderer" at you.

I think that's why it makes people so angry. There is no sensible reasoning with pro-lifers, so the only options are get angry or leave it unchallenged, which is very hard to do when it comes to such an emotive issue.

It’s ridiculous as like you say you can almost see the opinion of pro lifers when they are talking about a potential healthy child but it seems that some areas of the US just cannot see that abortion isn’t just a ‘social choice’ it’s also a medical treatment in many cases either for the life of the mother or to prevent the birth of a child so severely unwell
they die during or soon after birth ?

I hear all that. I agree with those thoughts. I just think that a derisive tone doesn't educate or help shift people to prochoice. The only real outcome is that they got a chance to belittle people and others feel belittled.

I've been here a longtime and it's a well known issue on the 'feminist' board. It's why it's such an echo chamber, focused on essentially bitching rather than genuine debate which as someone prochoice, gender critical, I'd prefer.

I'll see myself out back to the main boards.

There are some conditions where foetuses are shown so profoundly disabled it is inhumane to let them suffer - Neural tube defects- Cyclopia- Far more humane to terminate after early testing.

Just to add, I hate the designation "pro-life". I am pro-life. I want everyone to have a good chance of a decent life. That is why choice is so important.

It's no secret that banning abortion leads to more deaths of both mothers and babies as well as babies being born with very low quality of life. I live in a country where in theory there is the right to abortion but in practice it is difficult to access and late abortion is not allowed. When I was pregnant I met another mum who found out at around 25 weeks that her baby was severely brain-damaged, would have no quality of life and would probably live a life of constant pain. She was not allowed an abortion and ended up going to another country to get one. I think she did the right thing. Pro-lifers are never interested in quality of life ime.

@GrettaGreen

Again, overall I'm prochoice but there's a lack of balance in prolifers here being able to contribute genuinely because of the overt derision towards them

'Overt derision' in the case of those who believe it would be morally right for women and girls to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth against their will is a perfectly reasonable stance.

Think about what they're advocating for in their ideal world. How does that work? Are the women and girls kept in prison and forced to continue the pregnancy? To give birth in a prison hospital wing?

Really think about what they're advocating for in their ideal world. How it would work in practice. And then consider whether you think it's wrong for people to share overt derision for those views.

Mumsnet hates people who are pro-life/anti-abortion and I no longer get into debates about it because I will just get deleted.

Mumsnet doesn't hate people who are pro-life/anti-abortion. MN users hate people who are forced birthers. If your version of being pro-life is giving support, housing, food, wraparound-around care to young and/or vulnerable mums, so they can keep their babies if they want to, but can afford to, fill your boots.

But I was involved in a program for many years like that, offering housing and support to young, vulnerable mums, in our own homes, and ALL the homes were pro-choice. Every one. Where were all the pro-lifers? Not supporting the mums, that's for sure.

If your form of pro-life is forcing vulnerable, poor, young mums to carry a lifeless or traumatic unwanted pregnancy to term for your own beliefs, you are knowingly inflicting the worst kind of torture on women. And it's worth saying, if you actually want to reduce the number of abortions, look at the countries that have the fewest. It's not where they are illegal, just the opposite. It's where they are accessible and free. Because that tends to go together with good: women's rights, contraception, sex education and human rights. All of which increase women's control of their own fertility.

Bad at empathy and statistics.

You can't just claim an article from a reputable news source is "garbage" without at least explaining why.

This is because in some places even things like edwards / patau don't qualify for an abortion. A lot of babies are literally dying in horrible pain in their first few days of life.

There is an overt derision because the concept of forcing women and girls to give birth is so disgustingly cruel and wrong. Don't agree with abortion, then fine, don't have one but don't try and impose that on other women.

Anyone has the right to choose for themselves. The issue for me with prolifers is they wish the removal of my bodily autonomy. That to me is unacceptable

Never with people who hold these views. And if the child did happen to survive they never offer assistance in raising them either

I feel it's a fair belief that one life has more meaning than the other ie a woman's versus 28 week foetus/baby. But i don't think people have the right to end another's life. And i do see a 28 week old baby as a person in their own right. It's a difference of opinion, with no hard factual one is right or wrong, and not worthy of contempt.
Again, overall I'm prochoice but there's a lack of balance in prolifers here being able to contribute genuinely because of the overt derision towards them.