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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour has voted down the Tories' amendment to allow parents to see sex ed resources in schools.

108 replies

2fallsfromSSA · 13/02/2025 20:46

Schools minister Catherine McKinnell claims there's no evidence of a widespread problem.

This is utterly disgraceful, we know there are many issues with school RSE resources and there is no reason at all to stop parents knowing what their children are being taught in schools.

Not only are many materials politically motivated and biologically inaccurate, we been told by many distressed parents over the years - themselves the victims of CSA - that some school materials use the same language that their abusers did

Schools need to work in partnership with parents, not against them.

Catherine McKinnell responded to our thread by unfollowing us.

https://x.com/safeschoolsuk/status/1890126088166339041?s=46&t=wKQqSS_HYEY78hJQTlX9tJw

We gave evidence 2 years ago at the WESC, we have documented the issues, we have met with the Department for Education numerous times to share the concerns of parents and teachers.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2023/05/21/women-equalities-committee/

OP posts:
LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 12:47

^^ is TRA ideology been pushed into sex education

To be clear that list didn't come from anything to do with Education! It was from some research I read about ND individuals of which I have a personal interest as I have an Autistic child.

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 12:43

didn't have time to look for compliant resources but I was welcome to provide them if I could!!

Wow! That's shockingly unprofessional.
I hope you pushed back on that.

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 12:42

The school is teaching that 'trans' is a moveable sex class and has a sexual orientation.

I should really hope not. They have nothing to do with one another.

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 12:41

Note you did not list hetero as it is the assumed orientation. So girls and more so lesbian girl are put under preasure to class boys as something they are not (girls).

That because I was quoting evidence that ND more likely to identify as those groups- that was the context of the list.

AnSolas · 14/02/2025 12:33

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 11:56

Can you explain
queer sexual orientation,
asexual sexual orientation,
.....

My understanding is that the term "queer" is used now to cover changing preferences and fluid identity.
Asexual is having no interest in sex.

To be clear- just because I am discussing this does not mean I am a) teaching it or b) that anything I am discussing implies anything about my own stance or views.

To be clear- just because I am discussing this does not mean I am a) teaching it or b) that anything I am discussing implies anything about my own stance or views.

Agree to both a and b.
And that your role as a parent and teacher can clash toom

My understanding is that the term "queer" is used now to cover changing preferences and fluid identity.

In real life "Preferences" is a choice between 2 so
F> M or F
M> F or M

^^ that is being Bi which is a sexual orientation

In real life "Fluid Identity" has zero to do with sexual reproduction, yet this idea is being taught. So in my prior example the norm was F&M so a girl is taught F&F can become F&M.

And Stonewall as a LGB organisation is claiming Lady Dick Lesbians. And that girls who refuse Lady Dick Lesbian partners are sexual-racist.

So queer is a term used to sneek a individuals out of heterosexual or homosexual.

Note you did not list hetero as it is the assumed orientation. So girls and more so lesbian girl are put under preasure to class boys as something they are not (girls).

The school is teaching that 'trans' is a moveable sex class and has a sexual orientation.

Asexual is having no interest in sex.

In real life "no interest" in sexual education terms is a failure in puberty
Not a child saying No (to all or one) or low sex drive (may be as a result of CSA) or being unable to negotiate social ques etc.
And in a wider context it says everyone else is having sex or wanting sex.

Panicmode1 · 14/02/2025 12:24

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 12:02

But when you question it and are told what is being taught isn't compliant with DoE guidelines, you are told by your school's RSE lead (after several back and forwards emails) "I don't have time to find resources that are, if you can find them, please do send them".

It sounds like they were perhaps challenging to find the actual evidence- not how I personally would handle this, but if you had found inappropriate examples were you not in a position to share those? Or if someone had told you there were- did they not know what they were?
How did you know it wasn't compliant if you hadn't seen the evidence where it wasn't? So I would be making sure I provided that evidence. The likelihood is that a school will omit anything they consider contentious if they come across it as they don't want parents kicking off anymore than parents want to. Good teachers don't just blindly teach what's in front of them. Especially not in the current climate where parents do complain constantly I'm afraid.

They sent me the slides - I went through them and cross referenced with Safe Schools guidance/DoE guidance on RSE stuff - and picked apart the assertions which were being made - one slide said there are three sexes M, F and intersex. So I pushed back and after 3 or 4 emails got told that she hadn't checked them and she didn't have time to look for compliant resources but I was welcome to provide them if I could!!

EasternStandard · 14/02/2025 12:07

UrsulasHerbBag · 13/02/2025 22:05

It is really shocking and makes me wonder why on earth it is a problem for parents to see what their child is being taught. It’s just wrong.

Agree why can't people see it?

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 12:02

But when you question it and are told what is being taught isn't compliant with DoE guidelines, you are told by your school's RSE lead (after several back and forwards emails) "I don't have time to find resources that are, if you can find them, please do send them".

It sounds like they were perhaps challenging to find the actual evidence- not how I personally would handle this, but if you had found inappropriate examples were you not in a position to share those? Or if someone had told you there were- did they not know what they were?
How did you know it wasn't compliant if you hadn't seen the evidence where it wasn't? So I would be making sure I provided that evidence. The likelihood is that a school will omit anything they consider contentious if they come across it as they don't want parents kicking off anymore than parents want to. Good teachers don't just blindly teach what's in front of them. Especially not in the current climate where parents do complain constantly I'm afraid.

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 11:56

Can you explain
queer sexual orientation,
asexual sexual orientation,
.....

My understanding is that the term "queer" is used now to cover changing preferences and fluid identity.
Asexual is having no interest in sex.

To be clear- just because I am discussing this does not mean I am a) teaching it or b) that anything I am discussing implies anything about my own stance or views.

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 11:52

The fact that you seem to think trans is a sexual orientation shows how very ill-informed you are about this issue.*

That's deliberately misinterpreting what I said. Of course it isn't a sexual orientation.

Panicmode1 · 14/02/2025 11:40

LyndaLaHughes · 13/02/2025 23:21

I'm a teacher and RSE lead- we have a statutory duty to consult our parents on our RSE policy and to share the resources and content we use. We have to consult again if we want to change anything. Parents absolutely do see what is being taught.

But when you question it and are told what is being taught isn't compliant with DoE guidelines, you are told by your school's RSE lead (after several back and forwards emails) "I don't have time to find resources that are, if you can find them, please do send them".

AnSolas · 14/02/2025 11:35

TBF Ddakji i think LyndaLaHughes has differentiated between sexual acts and dressing or acting out a expected F/M role.

But this

...

lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, or asexual sexual orientation,
This lesbian, gay, bisexual is 2 sex 2 humans so 3 combinations
Can you explain
queer sexual orientation,
asexual sexual orientation,
.....

^^ is TRA ideology been pushed into sex education

Ddakji · 14/02/2025 11:14

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 09:28

If I teach children about what vegetarianism, for example, is or that it exists- how is that telling them they must be vegetarian or encouraging them to do it? There is a difference between teaching something exists and actively encouraging them to do it or pushing ideology onto them. I take umbrage with the two being conflated.
My ND teen has never learned a single thing about trans issues or down anything a beyond a very basic reference to sexual orientation at school. Yet- I still suspect they are confused about their sexuality. Evidence suggests that neurodiverse people, particularly those on the autism spectrum, are more likely to be gender diverse and have a lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, or asexual sexual orientation, compared to neurotypical people. The reasons why are not well understood. One possibility is that neurodiverse people tend to be less aware of, or less susceptible to, societal pressures and gender norms; therefore, they can express their gender identity or sexual orientation without concerns of being judged or fitting into certain roles. But the argument here seems to be that this is happening because they are being influenced at school which I strongly dispute.
I also dispute the idea that children listen to their teachers this much! They absolutely do not at Secondary level- they care about social media influences and what their peers say and are more likely to do the opposite of what teachers say! Another reason why we have a recruitment and retention crisis.
Society changes and regardless of people's personal views on contentious issues, I totally dispute the idea that huge numbers of teachers around the country are turning children trans which is what some seem to be implying. Parents complain at the drop of a hat so there is just no way this is widespread. Any schools that have done something stupid or misguided- certainly would not be doing it again because parents would kick off very quickly. It is those isolated incidents I have read about in threads linked here.
My main point was that I don't understand how what is already statutory guidance will be any further followed if ,as people state, some schools are already actively ignoring it whether wilfully or through ignorance. They are in a minority and if Ofsted aren't pulling them on it - then parents certainly will.

The fact that you seem to think trans is a sexual orientation shows how very ill-informed you are about this issue.

TempestTost · 14/02/2025 11:04

AnSolas · 14/02/2025 09:22

How much will the State pay a single parent to home school their child?

And home schooling will come under more and more pressure as school is increasingly seen as a safeguard against abusive parents

Not to mention the taxing of education that isn't provided by the state, it does rather look as if they believe all children ought to be subject to the views the government deems best, rather than the parents.

frenchnoodle · 14/02/2025 11:04

gavinandstaceychristmasspecial · 14/02/2025 10:25

We can see what's taught in my kids schools. They won't share the slides because of copyright but anyone can go into the office and view them there, no big deal.
Tories and Reform just like making drama where there is none. Go and ask your kids schools and they will show you what they teach for any subject.

The copyright thing is absolutely bollocks, there is nothing in copyright stopping the school privately sharing the slides. It's an excuse to stop parents viewing them.

And no it's not made up by labour and reform, this is actually happening and it has been highlighted here for years.

Grammarnut · 14/02/2025 11:04

flyingbuttress43 · 13/02/2025 21:20

Everyone who put this government in must have known what they were voting for.

Mercifully I did not vote for them. But I think many will not have realised the implications of Labour's stance on trans ideology etc or sex positivity. And, tbh, if you criticise sex positivity/OF etc on some MN boards you get swamped by MNetters calling you old-fashioned, a prude, and someone who thinks it's ok to tell other people what to do with their bodies (to be clear, I don't think I have any such right), so maybe some people think Labour's stance is not just ok but progressive and 'modern'.

MujeresLibres · 14/02/2025 10:42

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 09:33

I've just clicked on it and it works perfectly.

It has extra letters in it and goes to 'not found', please see picture (if I can attach it).

Labour has voted down the Tories' amendment to allow parents to see sex ed resources in schools.
gavinandstaceychristmasspecial · 14/02/2025 10:25

We can see what's taught in my kids schools. They won't share the slides because of copyright but anyone can go into the office and view them there, no big deal.
Tories and Reform just like making drama where there is none. Go and ask your kids schools and they will show you what they teach for any subject.

AnSolas · 14/02/2025 10:12

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 09:28

If I teach children about what vegetarianism, for example, is or that it exists- how is that telling them they must be vegetarian or encouraging them to do it? There is a difference between teaching something exists and actively encouraging them to do it or pushing ideology onto them. I take umbrage with the two being conflated.
My ND teen has never learned a single thing about trans issues or down anything a beyond a very basic reference to sexual orientation at school. Yet- I still suspect they are confused about their sexuality. Evidence suggests that neurodiverse people, particularly those on the autism spectrum, are more likely to be gender diverse and have a lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, or asexual sexual orientation, compared to neurotypical people. The reasons why are not well understood. One possibility is that neurodiverse people tend to be less aware of, or less susceptible to, societal pressures and gender norms; therefore, they can express their gender identity or sexual orientation without concerns of being judged or fitting into certain roles. But the argument here seems to be that this is happening because they are being influenced at school which I strongly dispute.
I also dispute the idea that children listen to their teachers this much! They absolutely do not at Secondary level- they care about social media influences and what their peers say and are more likely to do the opposite of what teachers say! Another reason why we have a recruitment and retention crisis.
Society changes and regardless of people's personal views on contentious issues, I totally dispute the idea that huge numbers of teachers around the country are turning children trans which is what some seem to be implying. Parents complain at the drop of a hat so there is just no way this is widespread. Any schools that have done something stupid or misguided- certainly would not be doing it again because parents would kick off very quickly. It is those isolated incidents I have read about in threads linked here.
My main point was that I don't understand how what is already statutory guidance will be any further followed if ,as people state, some schools are already actively ignoring it whether wilfully or through ignorance. They are in a minority and if Ofsted aren't pulling them on it - then parents certainly will.

In Ireland there is consitutional protection for a parents right to oversee education and yet one of its largest teaching unions invited the (its ok to have sex with children)'s organisation in to tell the teachers that they did not have to inform the parents about what they are teaching.

So some schools will develop a culture which as you point out is not to just teach.
Others end up guiding the questioning child rather than managing it within a questioning framework.
So its not individual teachers actively teaching rather activism (in school or in the LA) has altered the culture.

A simple example of culture change is that an employee had to get the courts permission to explain why she objected to a male in her changing room because it would be silly is she had to say she entered she striped etc as pronoun and other words reflect wider social norms.

Would you agree that a school deciding to relable single sex bathrooms to mixed sex or LA's decided to fund school builds with no single sex privision is an organisation taking a clear position on how the view the right of one child to have a single sex space over the want of another to be allowed into the space?

lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, or asexual sexual orientation,

This lesbian, gay, bisexual is 2 sex 2 humans so 3 combinations

Can you explain
queer sexual orientation,
asexual sexual orientation,

Seagullproofoldbag · 14/02/2025 09:37

It doesn't even have to come from RSE though. At my son's Secondary, the RE teacher gave them a list of famous people and asked them to put them in Good, Neutral and Bad categories. They were also given a small biog about the people. My son was castigated for putting JKR at the top of the good column because " she has made a series of transphobic tweets, how will our trans students feel about that?" Given that no yr 7 students are probably on Twitter, they all blindly accepted the teacher's nonsense.
We're in Cornwall, home of the Trans Student Handbook guidance circa 2012.

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 09:33

I've just clicked on it and it works perfectly.

MujeresLibres · 14/02/2025 09:29

Can you edit this link please, it has typos and leads nowhere.

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 09:28

If I teach children about what vegetarianism, for example, is or that it exists- how is that telling them they must be vegetarian or encouraging them to do it? There is a difference between teaching something exists and actively encouraging them to do it or pushing ideology onto them. I take umbrage with the two being conflated.
My ND teen has never learned a single thing about trans issues or down anything a beyond a very basic reference to sexual orientation at school. Yet- I still suspect they are confused about their sexuality. Evidence suggests that neurodiverse people, particularly those on the autism spectrum, are more likely to be gender diverse and have a lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, or asexual sexual orientation, compared to neurotypical people. The reasons why are not well understood. One possibility is that neurodiverse people tend to be less aware of, or less susceptible to, societal pressures and gender norms; therefore, they can express their gender identity or sexual orientation without concerns of being judged or fitting into certain roles. But the argument here seems to be that this is happening because they are being influenced at school which I strongly dispute.
I also dispute the idea that children listen to their teachers this much! They absolutely do not at Secondary level- they care about social media influences and what their peers say and are more likely to do the opposite of what teachers say! Another reason why we have a recruitment and retention crisis.
Society changes and regardless of people's personal views on contentious issues, I totally dispute the idea that huge numbers of teachers around the country are turning children trans which is what some seem to be implying. Parents complain at the drop of a hat so there is just no way this is widespread. Any schools that have done something stupid or misguided- certainly would not be doing it again because parents would kick off very quickly. It is those isolated incidents I have read about in threads linked here.
My main point was that I don't understand how what is already statutory guidance will be any further followed if ,as people state, some schools are already actively ignoring it whether wilfully or through ignorance. They are in a minority and if Ofsted aren't pulling them on it - then parents certainly will.

AnSolas · 14/02/2025 09:22

GrammarTeacher · 14/02/2025 07:32

They don’t force you to send your children to school though. Home schooling is allowed.

How much will the State pay a single parent to home school their child?

And home schooling will come under more and more pressure as school is increasingly seen as a safeguard against abusive parents

AnSolas · 14/02/2025 09:18

LyndaLaHughes · 14/02/2025 06:44

"of course not, she’s suggesting that those groups of people are particularly vulnerable to People pushing trans ideology"

Yes I didn't read the post properly - apologies. But who is pushing trans ideology? You aren't allowed to in schools here. That's very clear. The biggest pressure on young people comes from their peers and social media. The idea that teachers are turning kids trans or encouraging it is utterly ludicrous and it just isn't happening. Kids are utterly obsessed with whatever is on TikTok and treat it like a totally reliable source of information.

You aren't allowed to in schools here.

That depends on the school/LA
Are they allowing by exception mixed sex bathrooms or openly converting the bathrooms to mixed sex.
How are teachers instructed to manage a child claimimg to be the oppisate sex.
How must they deal with bullying around this issue.
How is Pride month and events managed
What acronym is being used LGB, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBT+, LGBTIQ+ and is it being used as a verb.

One school a Stonewall champion was teaching that a girl who was same sex attracted would take injections and become a man when she grew up. That culture is a problem as the parent would be seen as that problem parent