NHS Fife Tribunal Tweets - single sex facilities case

Faye's currently using a pseudonym - Faye RC isn't her real name.

I'm worried "we're" going to lose this one 😢

Faye, I wonder if you can explain how the anonymity you are seeking in February would work, given your name is already associated with the case through crowdfunding?
Obv, IANAL! Thankyou

VelvetThrows, in this case, I think single-sex changing rooms would have helped - if only that it would have been Dr Upton spending so much time suspended, Ms Peggie would have been allowed to work and otherwise (correctly) treated as the victim here.

Otherwise YES, your points about women’s typical behaviour versus Dr Upton is absolutely spot on

Single sex changing rooms wouldn't help with the fact that people like Dr Upton (no opinion on Dr Upton one way or the other of course) ENJOY imposing themselves on women (real ones) in women's changing rooms.

How awful that Dr Upton's feelings were hurt, when Ms Peggy's dignity and safety was put at risk?

How awful that Dr Upton asserted Dr Upton's right to be there when questioned. If Dr Upton was really a woman, Dr Upton would have been statistically much more likely to have been concerned about the impact of Dr Upton's presence on other people too.

There’s this thread too www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse?page=29

One of the most illuminating parts was when the KC for Dr Upton (the man in the women’s changing room) asked Sandie Peggie (the nurse) whether she makes a distinction between biological women and non-biological women.

The world has officially gone mad.

The BBC write up is ok if your you’re looking for something to get the gist of things

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8p41z972vo.amp

Yep, that would be my understanding!

And I'd like to bet that none of the "people" climbing over, or holding phones to film into other cubicles, are female.

If you believe TWAW then theres no need to mess about building individual cubicles, thats the view of this NHS trust it seems.

Anyway, any update from today’s proceedings welcome…

Our local swimming pool is all mixed changing in cubicles. Now all the cubicles have bars over the top to stop people climbing from one cubicle into another. They still sometimes hold phones over though, and film the next door cubicle. Some men are just vile. Separate sex changing is the only real answer, with third spaces if that’s deemed necessary

But if you're talking about a private cubicle within the main changing room, then the doctor would first have to check that there wasn't anyone already in the main changing room getting changed first/hang about waiting until it was completely empty(not ideal if they're rushing to start a shift) in order to walk through it to get to the cubicle.

Then even if it the main changing room was empty at that point, what happens if someone comes in while the dr is changing in the cubicle? The dr would come out and you'd still have the exact same issue as one of the occasions described by the nurse-she was part way through getting changed, the dr came in and the nurse felt uncomfortable and left.

Same if it was the other way round - nurse comes in first and goes into cubicle, doctor comes in afterwards, starts getting changed in the main area, nurse comes out of cubicle and sees the dr undressed.

Not to mention the fact that even though this nurse is the one named there might very well be other staff uncomfortable with the whole situation, from either perspective.

besides which the vast, vast majority of sexual assaults, peeping tom incidents, people recording others (either live or putting cameras in changing rooms or toilets) happen in mixed sex changing rooms with cubicles.

The best scenario/least potential for issues would be to only have multiple, completely self enclosed rooms (like disabled toilets usually are), but you'd have to have enough for everyone to get changed at the same time (very expensive given the shift nature of the NHS and takes up lots of space which is then unused for most of the day).

If you only had a few cubicles and no guidance saying who has to use them and who can/can't use the communal changing rooms, then you'd still be in the exact same position as now - with no recourse if the doctor (or any other trans member of staff) chooses not to use them (whether because making a stand/all the cubicles were already occupied and didn't want to wait or any other reason).

In this case, the woman was told she could change elsewhere or in a toilet cubicle if she objected and the 'non biological woman' was given permission to change in the communal area. This might solve the problem of being seen changing, but not unwillingly seeing people of the opposite sex change. When told their presence was intimidating and impacted the privacy of the women in the changing room, the 'non biological woman' was indifferent and asserted their rights. I use that term because it was used in the tribunal by the KC, and I'm using it to highlight the absurdity of it. Investing in unisex toilets across the NHS estate would be significant and hardly proportionate. This needs to be about policy. In this case, the balance wasnt right.

Of course the trans woman has another option - they can go in the male changing room as they are still male regardless of what they are trying to look like.

He can get changed with all the other men. Not our problem.

But surely one private cubicle would solve the issue for these two people and a compromise on the expense. The legal fees I imagine aren't insignificant in this case for the NHS, not to mention indirect costs in respect of employee relations. It just seems to me that at minimum a private separate cubicle would at least give both parties an option. As it stands neither the woman or trans woman are able to take any action to make a compromise. The trans woman has no options available to them. If I was a trans woman I would be sensitive to women's rights and the feelings of women would want at least an option to avoid a conflict.

That's presumably a lot of money though, to change all the communal changing rooms (I'm not NHS staff, so I'm just assuming here), and they might be left with less space. The NHS has better things to spend money on. And, wouldn't we have the toilet issue again? Gaps vs no gaps, safety vs privacy etc. It's all to solve a problem that only exists because males are claiming the right to use women's facilities.

What I don't understand is why there are open changing same sex changing rooms these days when anyone may want privacy in getting changed. There are plenty of mixed sex changing rooms in swimming pool facilities etc but with cubicles.

The time, money and weight people put on this issue can be simply solved by mixed changing room and individual cubicles. Surely everyone has the right to privacy and no judgement when getting changed irrespective of their identity?

How much more evidence do they need that this is an emotionally unstable individual who's needs locking up, can't the police section people any more?

WTF?!

This is harassment. Tribunal Tweets should contact the police.

I don’t understand how the complainant could sue the tribunal. Is that what NC said?

You never know! If we can have woman-penises surely a beard is far less of a stretch of the imagination?

I would be very surprised if he was wearing his beard for the tribunal.