Trump tells DOJ to prosecute teachers who “unlawfully” support trans or nonbinary students

Of course people with transgender identity exist.

There is a discussion to be had, not on this thread though, about leveraging other group’s historic homophobic and/or sexist oppression to support the theories that support gender identity and whether doing so is even remotely appropriate or accurate.

I never get this “saying trans people don’t exist” tripe. It’s not like God, ghosts and fairies - we are not debating their ‘existence’. 🙄 Their existence has made itself known. So much so that cheating men now win women’s awards, rape victims are commanded to call their rapist ‘she’ and women don’t legally exist in some modern democracies.

What we don’t and won’t agree on, is that someone can change sex. They can’t. That’s not hate. That’s a fact. And you’re part of the problem whipping this up and calling it such.

neither sex. Not neither identity. apologies

"And supporting children in exploring gender as a construct is not ushering them towards self-mutilation."

It can result in that outcome though. And what professional psychological training does a teacher have to explore an individual child's gender? And these days having a lesson where a teacher 'explores 'gender' as a construct' may not mean simply stating that sex stereotypes are harmful and people of both sexes should be free from living without adherence to stereotypes.

Every parent should have the right to view the material that their child is shown in any lesson. Then there is the issue about changing a child's identity at school, no school should be changing a child's school record without a parent's request. I have had two friends who have had this happen where their child (two different families) has had heavily involved teaching and support staff change their school records without the parent knowing.

Hmm. As a feminist teacher in the 80s, the focus was not on pronouns. We were too busy fighting for equal pay, setting up rape crisis / DV resources, pushing for legal change etc. Pretending that people could change sex was nowhere on the feminist agenda.
Telling children that their growing bodies might be flawed and a sex change will cure them is ushering a highly vulnerable minority on a path to sterilisation and bodily mutilation.
Personally I'm horrified that so many on the left have abandoned their responsibility to safeguard children from an age inappropriate ideology, but that's just me.

I think with Trump the old saying my enemy’s enemy is my friend cannot apply. At least for me.
I find it hugely annoying that this sociopathic narcissist aligns himself with biological reality. It adds fuel to the fire that anyone who does not believe in a magical ability to change sex is a right wing extremist who is also racist and whatever other nasties can be attributed.
I think his interventions will only increase support for trans issues as they will finally be factually claim the persecution they have previously only exaggerated and lied about in order to gain public sympathy.
I am so sick of morals, ethics, politics being about joining one extreme club or the other when it is perfectly possible to hold a range of views without needing a flag or a label to define your thinking.

People can choose any pronouns to anything they want.
What they don’t have the right to do is insist that others adopt them under penalty of being described as bigots or transphobic.

'You can change pronouns as a gender-critical statement (as I and other feminist children did in primary school in the 80s).'

No student or teacher was punished for not following your pronoun request though. No person was expected to act as if your pronoun reflected that you had either changed sex or was neither identity. You made that choice due to a political belief. It is not comparative to the current situation.

I can't see any of that on this thread. I see responsible adults discussing Trump's EO, looking at the pros and cons & with a couple of exceptions, agreeing that that no adults in schools are qualified to engage in this psychological experiment (social transitioning) on children & that no school should be transitioning children in secret from parents (all of which has been happening in the USA and in too many schools in the UK.

Long overdue for parents to say no to schools and to challenge all the trans captured organisations pushing this at children. I wish the UK had a government as concerned about safeguarding children as the USA appears to have elected.

You can change pronouns as a gender-critical statement (as I and other feminist children did in primary school in the 80s).

And supporting children in exploring gender as a construct is not ushering them towards self-mutilation.

Trump's law is preventing discussion and self-expression and is part of his insistence on gender constructs, part of his wider misogyny drive.

The level of anti-trans hate on mn makes me feel physically ill.

Saying that TW are NOT Women, is not hate. It's a simple matter of biological fact. It annoys me that we have to throw science out of the window. Most of us would allow TWs to get on with cross dressing if that's what they want, as long as they respect the rest of us. But they don't seem to.

👆

I absolutely agree with Trump on this (much to my surprise as I loathe him)

Yeah no. Ushering kids towards serilisation and mutilation - that's the sickest sick thing in the world. Wanting kids to grow up with all their body parts and mental health intact is not sick.

Trans people exist, but they haven’t changed sex.
I’m sorry you feel sick because I too feel sick that some strangers can tell children they’re in the ‘wrong body’

The way I see it, and it is only my opinion, but by introducing these EOs as quickly as they have, allows people to question what has been happening in schools without being silenced by the school boards. The parents that have questioned the reading materials available in the libraries have been silenced.
These executive orders now give those parents a voice and restore their rights to demand those responsible for teaching 4th and 5th Grade children that it’s entirely possible and in some cases preferable to ‘change sex’ will be held to account.

As for the reading materials available in schools..I have no words. 😠

The level of anti-trans hate on mn makes me feel physically ill. I understand the issues around female only spaces, women’s sports, and being v v careful about how/when we give support because childhood is a difficult and confusing time and you don’t want to get it wrong…. But to say that trans people don’t EVER really exist when they have throughout history, and to level this amount of hatred towards them is truly sick.

And if they are not lawful, they will be challenged. Biden had EOs challenged to. It is only right that EOs be challenged if they have been poorly drafted.

I personally think that it is far better to establish well debated legislation and issue guidance. But that is just my opinion.

Still doesn't mean that the outcome that is intended for the EOs that are being discussed on FWR at the moment are poor results for female people and children. Particularly if the EO issues a directive for the relevant department to come up with the finer details.

That's what makes me uneasy. The courts in the states are increasingly controlled by Trump-appointed judges, so who knows what they might do. The EO definition is too nebulous.

Thanks @OldCrone - just what I was going to reply. I can’t believe so many teachers willingly go along with it. It’s as if they are whistled to support a new social activism and they happily come running with no critical thinking whatsoever.

Teachers act within contexts and cultures. If it has been decided that promoting identity politics and the culture of' gender' is to cease in schools - then teachers who have been actively colluding must cease doing so. The leadership team must stop inviting in activist groups as well, or using their resources.

Not all teachers have gone along with pronouns etc...in fact many have opposed it. The teachers who have gone along with it, and even promoted it, have usually been activists, or else operating under guidelines put out by the school's lead.

"T" lives and 'identities were not a thing in the 1980's. And in fact the whole identity business was not a thing, either. Lesbians and gay men did not 'identify as' anything. They were simply same sex attracted.