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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
TempestTost · 31/01/2025 19:04

HardenYourHeart · 31/01/2025 10:50

I think Trump and his cronies are making this even worse. The "left" (or whatever) are becoming entrenched because the other side are filled with fundamentally bad people.

Really?

Because it looks like the "fundamentally bad people" are doing the right things here.

The "fundamentally good people" are looking pretty shit.

A conundrum.

MalagaNights · 31/01/2025 17:06

That's a terrible article.

It's all over the place logically with unfounded assumptions that are not articulated because she believes her readers will agree with her.

The term misogynist is applied as if there is an assumption of what that means or how it applies to trump or the right.

Trump has obviously treated women very badly in his personal life but the assumption he doesn't value them because they are women in their roles in the workplace and economy is not explained, because I think there's no evidence for it.

So what exactly is this nebulous 'misogyny' we're supposed to be afraid of?
I could understand it if you were thinking of dating him, but as a 'misogynist' president what are women supposed to actually be afraid of?

She doesn't say.

It's hinted that's it's abortion. Which is the only thing I think can be levelled. And she again presumes there is only one pro women position on abortion (but she doesn't say what that is) which is again lazy. There are many different arguments around abortion and how differing policies effect women.
The idea that the left hold the only pro women view of abortion is a view only the left hold.

So if it's not just abortion what are these other misogynistic policies? None are mentioned despite all the misogyny and fear.

We do get the fear of people who value 'traditional gender roles'. What is she afraid of? That woman are going to be forced into being trad wives? What policy is pushing that then? None, it's just fear mongering about people who think differently. Mostly about religious people and their views.

If you don't want to be a trad wife don't be one. It's that easy. You don't have to be scared of the people who live differently.

And the reaction on here that the left have Good Intentions. Well 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

Such naive dangerous clap trap.

Everyone has good intentions. The road to hell is paved with them.
I cannot believe anyone is still so deluded to be saying; well yes they did remove women's rights and child safeguarding but they meant well.

A really poor article by a usually good writer imo.

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 16:37

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 31/01/2025 16:35

I agree, if Trump's the bad guy, how bad must the guy's who made him look good to the electorate be?

(For the record I don't like Trump one little bit)

Exactly

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 31/01/2025 16:35

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 11:22

Trump is playing them all like a violin.

The left are totally paralysed by this idea that they're the 'good guys' and the orange man is evil. It means they can't back down on obviously awful and damaging policies. And their cognitive dissonance in trying to maintain their image of themselves is off the charts.

The voting public simply do not agree with the left's assessment of themselves. And on many issues, Trump is looking like the more sane option. That is a situation entirely of the democrats making.

I agree, if Trump's the bad guy, how bad must the guy's who made him look good to the electorate be?

(For the record I don't like Trump one little bit)

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 16:14

So, I guess I agree with you that they want to be good people. But I'd conclude their comprehension of what a good person actually is - is totally lacking.

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 16:12

NecessaryScene · 31/01/2025 16:03

They want to be good people

Sorry, but I don't think "wanting to be good people" can be necessarily classed as a "good intention".

Framed like that it's about self-regard, or how other people perceive you. You're looking inwards, not outwards. And that's how you end up manipulated - you're not looking at what you're actually going along with.

I also think you can want to be 'good people' without realising your moral framework for being a good person isn't fit for purpose.

Hence the desire to 'be kind' to those who are shouting loudest that they're oppressed, without having the wisdom or discipline to question that and look out for the needs of other vulnerable people whose voices are not being heard (like women in prison).

HardenYourHeart · 31/01/2025 16:09

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 16:02

But what about the women in prisons, at risk of being sexually assaulted by men. I notice you gloss over that.

There's a woman suing the state of California because of this. She was locked up in a cell with a man who then sexually harassed her.

What about this? Do you really see good intentions here?

You noticed correctly.

I don't have an argument for that and neither do "the left". They just bury their head in the sand.

NecessaryScene · 31/01/2025 16:03

They want to be good people

Sorry, but I don't think "wanting to be good people" can be necessarily classed as a "good intention".

Framed like that it's about self-regard, or how other people perceive you. You're looking inwards, not outwards. And that's how you end up manipulated - you're not looking at what you're actually going along with.

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 16:02

HardenYourHeart · 31/01/2025 15:33

I agree with your last statement.

I do think they have good intentions. Many on the "left" are women and they do have to content with men in their changing rooms and on their hospital wards. They will just put up with the obvious discomfort and even feel guilty for feeling that way. They want to be good people and they believe this is what it takes.

But what about the women in prisons, at risk of being sexually assaulted by men. I notice you gloss over that.

There's a woman suing the state of California because of this. She was locked up in a cell with a man who then sexually harassed her.

What about this? Do you really see good intentions here?

HardenYourHeart · 31/01/2025 15:33

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 11:41

Do they?

Do they have good intentions towards the women locked up with men in prisons? Do they have good intentions towards the children who's health and future are being sacrificed to the gender cult?

And ultimately, outcomes matter more than intentions.

I agree with your last statement.

I do think they have good intentions. Many on the "left" are women and they do have to content with men in their changing rooms and on their hospital wards. They will just put up with the obvious discomfort and even feel guilty for feeling that way. They want to be good people and they believe this is what it takes.

WorthyTraybake · 31/01/2025 13:39

liveandlearn73628 · 31/01/2025 12:12

I think she wrote it to tell lefties "GC feminists don't support Trump on everything", "we're not dumb"? At least, that's what I thought it was an attempt at. But yes, it's like the other threads here where posters are saying "you shouldn't be happy with Trump because he's a misogynist " and the other posters are "well, no shit sherlock...."

Edited

Yes, I think this too. Think it's a good article to share with bekind friends.

OP posts:
lcakethereforeIam · 31/01/2025 12:52

JazzyJelly · 31/01/2025 11:41

Good intentions butter no parsnips

But they do pave the road to hell 😈🔥. So there's that.

liveandlearn73628 · 31/01/2025 12:16

I do hope there's big news on detransitioners suing health care providers. Even a leftist would ask why would they sue if they were happy and feel their best selves.

IllustratedDictionaryOfTheDoldrums · 31/01/2025 12:15

At the moment, I think left/right are out of date and far too simplistic.
'Left' is now a catch all term for people who are often incredibly different and with opposing views. It covers everyone from old school left who fought against S28 and for free speech to trade unionists to climate change activists to radical feminists to hard-core TRAs fighting for censorship and against women's rights.
Add in that right is becoming more of a broadchurch too.

liveandlearn73628 · 31/01/2025 12:12

Floisme · 31/01/2025 12:03

I normally have a lot of time for Victoria Smith but I found that article pretty patronising. Does she really think we're not aware of all this?
Is she pleased for women currently in federal prisons or not?

I think she wrote it to tell lefties "GC feminists don't support Trump on everything", "we're not dumb"? At least, that's what I thought it was an attempt at. But yes, it's like the other threads here where posters are saying "you shouldn't be happy with Trump because he's a misogynist " and the other posters are "well, no shit sherlock...."

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 12:06

The Left, founded on a belief in social progress and a happy belief in humanity's relentless march towards betterment, has a degree of conviction in its own moral superiority that can frighten me. It seems to come with a built-in blindness to its own fallibility. And with this comes a dangerous confidence that can be used to justify the most egregious wrongs

This is very insightful and beautifully articulated

Retiredfromthere · 31/01/2025 12:03

liveandlearn73628 · 31/01/2025 11:45

Agree. Trump was the shock that needed to happen. But will anything make the left think straight?? Maybe the only thing that will work is reducing the amount of money gender ideology makes... which is what Trump is doing.

His EO's are also making it a requirement to communicate in plain (accurate) language and making it easier for those with adverse experiences or doubts to come forward with evidence (e.g. detransitioners). I guess we will see whether this does give the left a push to rethink. I don't see that without glaringly-obvious facts at an almost overwhelming scale, left learning advocates of gender identity will move from their entrenched and beloved positions at all. On bad days I think that even with 'glaringly obvious facts' being presented and debated openly they will continue to see themselves as the good guys and carry on as before.

Floisme · 31/01/2025 12:03

I normally have a lot of time for Victoria Smith but I found that article pretty patronising. Does she really think we're not aware of all this?
Is she pleased for women currently in federal prisons or not?

Catiette · 31/01/2025 12:02

I think I'll make a mess of expressing this - not very well, and really weak on politics generally: it could sound facile. But...

The Left, founded on a belief in social progress and a happy belief in humanity's relentless march towards betterment, has a degree of conviction in its own moral superiority that can frighten me. It seems to come with a built-in blindness to its own fallibility. And with this comes a dangerous confidence that can be used to justify the most egregious wrongs - including reworking language and reframing reality: "this is what we do, after all: we shape a New World For The Good Of The People". Communism. Trans ideology at the expense of women. Its complete denial of - or worse, a failure to see - its flaws is a key feature. It's "progressive", after all. And how can progress, by definition, be problematic?

Rightly or wrongly, I see somewhat less capacity for such dangerous deceit - the outward-facing kind, of voters, and self-deceit - in the Right. Isn't there are kind of additional layer of security in their C/conservative status? They look to preserve what is and what was, and we're in a society now in which there's a clear consensus on left and right that some, at least, of the most extreme examples of what was (voteless women, Section 28 etc.), are now unthinkable. I do worry this doesn't apply so much to racism - the Southport riots showed this bubbling undercurrent of racist fury... but, even then, my point is that this tendency was expressed more overtly than equivalent, fundamental, prejudices are expressed be by the Left. To the Right, political arguments for the removal or degradation of established rights tend to be more explicit: "Feminism has gone too far... We need a return to the values of the past... We'll protect women whether they want it or not!" Hitler's anti-semitism far more blatant than the complex spectrum of feelings, from the liberal to the intolerant - we know it's still out there - jumbled together in, for example, the pro-Palestinian marches.

So (perhaps extremely naively?), I sometimes think we're better protected from the more obvious risks of right-wing prejudice, by our awareness of how far we've come and what these changes mean to us, than we are against the Left's more insidious, and by definition less familiar, forays into "social progress" through experimental social engineering. These efforts can include - to a degree, will be driven by - the exact same prejudices (eg. the misogyny & homophobia of trans rights ideology)... but these prejudices are better hidden under the rainbow flag of progressivism than an open acknowledgement of past values as being in some way "better".

I worry that they're that much more marketable to an increasingly frustrated and disenfranchised voting public.

PS Fell behind on the thread writing that, so not aware of the more recent replies!

Greyskybluesky · 31/01/2025 12:02

HardenYourHeart · 31/01/2025 11:37

At least the "left" have good intentions, even if they are misguided on some issues.

Whereas the "right" are petty and vindictive and only occasionally get things right by accident.

So how long do we have to wait until they get around to acting on these "good intentions"?

I think believing men can be women is a bit more than just "misguided".

MrsOvertonsWindow · 31/01/2025 12:02

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 11:58

This article was posted on the other thread and is quite the read for anyone who wants to take a good clear look at how 'well intentioned' the Democrats were on the gender issue.

www.thefp.com/p/abigail-shrier-how-the-gender-fever-broke-trump-executive-order

What a good article from Abigail Shrier - thank you

TheKeatingFive · 31/01/2025 11:58

This article was posted on the other thread and is quite the read for anyone who wants to take a good clear look at how 'well intentioned' the Democrats were on the gender issue.

www.thefp.com/p/abigail-shrier-how-the-gender-fever-broke-trump-executive-order

liveandlearn73628 · 31/01/2025 11:55

As an example, I don't know of any Guardian readers who actually understand what the issue is in the first place. It's been 10 years! They think it's about DSDs or LGB. Not about actual men in women's toilets (they think they're fully transitioned and "no threat"), the mutilation of children (they think it's "gender-affirming care"), nor death and rape threats to women (of course they must be Karens). They don't even think this was a big reason why Trump was elected (must have all been bigots voting). The same people will not sully their eyes by reading a right-wing or independent newspaper to get the other side of the story.

They are in their own bubble. Something needs to break them out of it.

So, I, respectfully, disagree with the amazing Victoria Smith on this one. Either way, Trump already in, so the argument is moot.

TheCatsTongue · 31/01/2025 11:53

WorthyTraybake · 31/01/2025 11:19

I think you're right, and I'm guilty of denying the evidence before my own eyes that the left are showing very few signs right now of embracing reality on this (and, with support for the third runway, our centre left (?) government is, in effect if not in words, engaging in anti-scienec climate change denial).
I still think that Trump is the bigger enemy though - he's not even pretending to be decent 😟

The third runway is a strange take. It's not being built because of an engagement with anti-science climate change denial, it's being done out of desperation to create economic growth.

And generally every decision by a government is due to vested interests from lobbying. Heathrow has been lobbying for years. The trans movement is only the size it is today because Stonewall get massive funding and then lobby. It is definitely the case where the government fund Stonewall to lobby them!

Floisme · 31/01/2025 11:52

What Trump knows, is what an open goal looks like.
Sort it out, Democrats. (You too, Labour Party.)

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