US executive order - relating to gender identity and the armed forces.

But where are those women actively treated like they were male? Do you mean personally or do you mean administratively?

They are women. They perform their duties as women. They are very likely to be highly respected by their team, as women though. I don’t understand the comparison.

There is no comparison that I can think of where military personnel who are homosexual or bisexual can or should be compared to someone with a transgender identity.

Where are they comparative?

Does it apply to women transing as men? Surely they do this to stop being predated by the men. So I'm not sure about that.

I think it's good that they won't have to shower with a man now.

I think there is a point to be discussed though about the expectation of pronoun use and what would happen with misgendering. And that obviously covers all personnel not just those who can be or are deployed into combat.

There are also issues around what physical limits people with transgender idenitities are held to - the sex they are or the sex they claim to be. Such as the USAF physical activity study. And if exceptions are made for those standards for that group of personnel, that could be claimed as discriminatory. And those base physical standards apply to acceptance of just about all new people into the military whatever their job. Whether they work in a warehouse or do end up being deployed.

And they also play competitive sport in the military, which all personnel are able to compete in. It is encouraged.

Another stream for instance is medical. Should a doctor or nurse be able to hide the sex they are in the military?

There then becomes an issue if a person has been accepted as their identified gender and then for reasons such as I have mentioned such as the regular physical testing, being on exercise as a junior where a much wider range of staff are practicing skills and drills where if a person will be outed if held to the correct sex physical standard etc. And many streams people expect to be restricted to base participate on exercise.

There are many reasons for that EO to cover all roles in the military.

But he isn't doing this for women and children is he? I completely understand why people are worried about this ban being extended to LGB soldiers for example, using the same rhetoric.

But LG B soldiers are not asking the military to pay for cosmetic surgery, nor are they excluding themselves from active duty., while recovering from major cosmetic surgery procedures nor will they be taking unnecessary medication ., so why on earth would they be banned from serving?

I think this could have been tackled with ensuring that stringent mental and physical checks and tests were done on proposed new recruits to weed out the navel gazers of every gender identity (combined with the protections for single sex spaces raised in the earlier EO). People should not be joining up just to get medical cover, that's the opposite of having a fit and strong armed forces.

But yes, with the references to selflessness and humility, thus administration is clearly signalling they think many trans people are self-absorbed, and it's not an unreasonable view and definitely not a trait which is compatible with military service.

Saying they aren't paying for hormones, surgery etc... fair. Making sure facilities are single sex... fair.

But he isn't doing this for women and children is he? I completely understand why people are worried about this ban being extended to LGB soldiers for example, using the same rhetoric.

About 1.2 cheers.
Totally fine with the military excluding fetishist men who want to wear pink silk panties under their fatigues and make everyone refer to him as she.

Wondering about the butch lesbian women who have been encouraged to think of themselves as male but who are primarily bloody good soldiers and don't really think about gender much. I don't think a change of president should force them out of the military.

Sorry @Helleofabore yes they WERENT allowed to cover up coming out of the showers etc. an important distinction!

I find it interesting that this focuses on the psychological aspects rather than the physical. I agree with both for combat zone roles, but not so much for non-combat roles.

Ahhh. Weren’t allowed, sorry insomnia confusion. I had to reload my memory but I remember reading this a while back thinking it was a horrendous over reach.

That sounds bonkers, Hermione.

I think it’s an excellent and well written EO - nearly as impressive as today’s Protecting Children From Chemical and Surgical Mutilation EO.

I believe by far the majority of trans people in the military do not serve in frontline active combat positions. They are in auxiliary/support/associated services roles.

Not surprising but that's another EO becoming a long running court saga - not sure how many it is now but quite a few
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/transgender-members-file-lawsuit-challenging-211752186.html

Getting flamed is not the same as disagreeing.

I think the question of women in the armed forces has a lot of complicated elements, and I base that entirely on my time there. I think it's reductive to dismiss it as sexism right off the bat.

Just to check that Hermione, do you mean that they were not even allowed to cover themselves up?

It was considered transphobic and othering for the women to shower in a towel etc. I knew about this too. An early peaking moment for me about a decade or so ago.

i can never decide wether i am tail end first wave feminism or second wave. But i am oldish. I just think as did feminist way back that war was for men.

and that if women led the world we would not go around killing each other.

I heard an interview on the radio when Trump first said he would do this last year. Apparently the armed forces are really popular with trans people in America, partly because it gives those living in conservative areas a way to be gender non conforming in a way they are scared to be at home, but also because of the medical treatment they could get for free - hormones, surgery - if they were diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

The PP had said they were waiting to be flamed!

I wouldn't have used the word flamed had they not done so.

Bit odd that you're aiming at me not at the sexism towards female members of the armed forces : S

"...high standards for...honesty, humility...integrity..."

Excellent

I was in the armed forces myself, you know you could always just disagree rather than flaming people.

Yes, it has limited impact in a uniformed role, I'm just anticipating counter arguments.

I like the selfless and humility thing because it emphasis the lack of in a certain minority

Regarding being discriminatory on the grounds of gender preservation, I see this as a "who cares?" situation. Female and male personnel of the same rank wear the same uniform. The women's uniform is differently cut. But they're all meant to be interchangeable. Nobody gets to stand out. There are women's skirt options, presumably for desk jobs or ceremonial occasions, but the basic uniform is the same for everyone. It goes to the paragraph I quoted about humility and selflessness.