Has anyone seen the movie Conclave and would be happy to talk about the ending with me

Well, the article was a short extract and I can't say I'm any the wiser!

True hermaphroditism would be the same individual being able to produce viable sperm and viable eggs either sequentially or at the same time. And have a uterus in which they could gestate a baby, as well as having a penis, etc. I don't see how it would be possible because both sexual development pathways would have to be active and the development triggers for one sex suppress development for the other. Also, I believe, the same originally undifferentiated tissue makes the sexually differentiated structures - penises and vaginas, labia and scrotal sacs. So I don't see how there would be enough to go around, if you see what I mean! I'm in no way an expert, this is just what I've picked up.
I'll take a look at the article posted, though.

A couple of years ago, I saw a report about the case posted upthread of a female with de la Chapelle's who had externally male genitalia, testes as well. Phenotypically male. They even produced semen, but could not produce sperm and (obviously) did not produce eggs. It's probably the same case.

DSDs who are miniscule in the population are now being used as propaganda in the ongoing never ending trans propaganda war. This is Hollywood using these people for their own nefarious ends. Looks like Trump is going to crush this ideology. Good.

Interesting - although as stated extremely rare among an already rare condition - and most people with this condition require hormone treatment to develop secondary male characteristics at puberty - but I guess there are always exceptions so as you say - the storyline could be possible.

However, it also raises questions about whether sex is determined by the Y chromosome or a functioning SRY gene - but I know that’s an ongoing debate.

Agree with this. And I am as Terfy as can be. I assumed it was a case of true hermaphrodism. I actually felt it was dealt with quite well.

As an aside- I really immensely enjoyed that the man who became the Pope is actually an architect in real life and a very new/amateur actor. I thought he was fantastic in it.

It seems it could be plausible.

The de la Chapelle syndrome, also known as 46,XX testicular disorder of sex development (DSD) 1], is an exceptionally rare genetic disorder that influences sexual development. Within this condition, individuals with a female karyotype (46,XX) experience undescended testes and ambiguous genitaliastemming from irregular gonadal and genitalia development during fetal gestation
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10693380/

This suggests female karyotype put male phenotype (but with low testosterone)

At puberty there are male typical changes (which would create low voice and physical signs) but can also be breast development.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214624524000200
This is an interesting case of a 35 year old described as a man with the DSD who presented with infertility. He was married and wanted children - "Given the absence of the AZF region, there was no chance of success with a testicular sperm extraction and subsequent trial of IVF, and we therefore discussed traditional adoption versus donor sperm to address the couple's infertility. They ultimately proceeded with donor sperm insemination, and at the time of this writing the couple has two healthy children."

It seems the name has been changed - it has been known as de la Chapelle or 46XX male syndrome. Following an international consensus meeting in 2005, it is now more properly known as 46,XX testicular disorder of sex development

Thank you for starting this thread - I really enjoyed the film until the end, which left me very disappointed and frustrated.

II don’t know of any DSD that results in a female not only presenting as male but believing herself to be male. - i.e. not developing breasts or having periods. CAH is the closest but as I understand it this would result in significant health difficulties that demand treatment during childhood so it would have been unlikely that the main character could have developed into a healthy adult if not diagnosed at a young age.

If it had been the other way round (male chromosomes but presenting as female) CAIS could conceivably fit the bill - but not relevant to this story.

46XY could also potentially fit the bill (with the presence of a non-functioning womb)- but here the individual is male (xy) so not really a barrier to becoming pope.

I know it’s Hollywood etc. but I’m a bit sad that DSDs are again misrepresented and seem to be a political ‘gotcha’ rather than the rare but complex health conditions that they are. There is already so much misinformation and lack of understanding about the issue (5% of the population etc.) that this feels like a cheap trick.

Or Chekhov's wrapped disposable razor!

This is the relevant bit in the novel, which I read after I saw the film, so can't remember exactly what was changed in the film:
-------------------

‘And what would it have been, this treatment?’

Benítez sighed. ‘I believe the clinical terms are surgery to correct a fusion of the labia majora and minora, and a clitoropexy.’

Lomeli sat down on the nearest chair and put his head in his hands. After a few moments, he was aware of Benítez pulling up a chair next to him.

‘Let me tell you how it was, Dean,’ Benítez said softly. ‘This is the truth of it. I was born to very poor parents in the Philippines, in a place where boys are more prized than girls – a preference I fear is still the case all over the world. My deformity, if that is what we must call it, was such that it was perfectly easy and natural for me to pass as a boy. My parents believed that I was a boy. I believed that I was a boy. And because the life of the seminary is a modest one, as you know well, with an aversion to the uncovering of the body, I had no reason to suspect otherwise, and nor did anyone else. I need hardly add that all my life I have observed my vows of chastity.’

‘And you really never guessed? In sixty years?’

‘No, never. Now, of course, when I look back, I can see that my ministry as a priest, which was mainly among women who were suffering in some way, was probably an unconscious reflection of my natural state. But I had no idea of it at the time. When I was injured in the explosion in Baghdad, I went to a hospital, and only then was I fully examined by a doctor for the first time. The instant the medical facts were explained to me, naturally I was appalled. Such darkness came upon me! It seemed to me that my entire life had been lived in a state of mortal sin. I offered my resignation to the Holy Father, without giving him the reasons. He invited me to Rome to discuss it and sought to dissuade me.’

‘And did you tell him the reasons for your resignation?’

‘In the end, yes, I had to.’

Lomeli stared at him, incredulous. ‘And he thought it was acceptable for you to continue as an ordained minister?’

‘He left it up to me. We prayed together in his room for guidance. Eventually I decided to have the surgery and to leave the ministry. But the night before I was due to fly to Switzerland, I changed my mind. I am what God made me, Your Eminence. It seemed to me more of a sin to correct His handiwork than to leave my body as it was. So I cancelled my appointment and returned to Baghdad.’

‘And the Holy Father was content to allow that?’

‘One must assume so. After all, he made me a cardinal in pectore in full knowledge of who I am.’

Lomeli cried out, ‘Then he must have gone mad!’

I thought it was quite clear in the book that he had a DSD but was found to be natal female and had surgery to change that to male.

Crap ending to the book though - really awful given the rest of it was really compelling. I do find Robert Harris very inconsistent though.

Not an expert by any means but this article seems to suggest true hermaphroditism is possible
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.1994.tb02506.x

Thinking about it a bit more, I can't imagine what it would be like to be one of these 500 people. There is such a risk of differences like this making someone a "freak" and I think using this condition as a gotcha twist in a psychological thriller is, well, shaves awfully close to that risk.
I read a tweet by SwipeWright saying he thought it made most sense to think of individuals with ovotesticular DSD as not having a sex. I'm actually happy to not have an opinion on it. If we're generous and say the numbers on the Rare Diseases website mean 500 people in the USA since 1900 that's still such a small number. Case-by-case response from their own community, and the rest of us butt out and not use real people for endless thought experiments.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/ovotesticular-disorder-of-sex-development/
Only about 500 reported cases, ever.

According to AI: Yes, the biological condition where someone can have both ovarian and testicular tissue is called "ovotesticular disorder of sex development" (DSD), previously known as "true hermaphroditism" - meaning an individual possesses both ovarian and testicular tissue, either in separate gonads or within a single gonad called an ovotestis; this is a very rare condition with ambiguous genitalia often present.

Key points about ovotesticular DSD:
Definition: Presence of both ovarian and testicular tissue in the same individual.

Genitalia: Can appear ambiguous, with features of both male and female genitalia.

Chromosomes: Most commonly associated with a 46,XX karyotype (female), but can vary.

Clinical presentation: May vary depending on the amount and location of ovarian and testicular tissue.

So on those grounds I suppose it would be plausible, though a vanishingly rare possibility, for somebody to have ambiguous but male-resembling genitalia and be brought up in a very modest fashion with little comparison to other men to then arrive at the point of Benitez in the movie discovering while having his appendix removed that he also had ovaries and a uterus.

@YourAmplePlumPoster Quite.

I haven’t read the book so it was all a surprise to me.

I think the movie was not made by Catholics. Like a grain of sand in one’s sgoe, bits irritated.

If you read history, Europe spent many decades expelling or fighting Islam to keep this religion at bay. During the movie, there is an Islamist car bombing which affects the Vatican and the only Cardinal who speaks out against Islamist attacks is voted out in favour of the weird cardinal who's been in the Middle East and is of an uncertain sexual orientation. Quite a distortion of history.

Not seen the film but thank you shockeditellyou for introducing me to Chekov's Gun. Every day a schoolday 👍

I read the book, and as massively disappointed with the ending, which was quite obvious if you are aware of trans issues and the massive Chekov’s Gun moment.

Which is a shame, because I thought it was a great thriller with a very disappointing ending,

It’s a brilliant film.
IMO
A good thriller / intrigue film
Beautifully shot
Exposing plenty of hypocrisy
Including about the ill treatment of women by men, by the church
A good central moral dilemma (an ethical one, not religious)

But this is a film. A fictional plot.

I n the book it sounds like he just has cosmetic surgery. But I very much doubt he'd have looked masculine enough to pass as male. Especially if he had Particularly as he'd lived in a seminary etc, would also probably live with his priest secretary etc. (As bishops tend too). I do think the story was strong enough on its own, without the need for that twist at the end.

O gosh, I had hoped that might be worth watching.

So far I've never seen a film with "gotcha" theology that was compelling.

"You now have a female born person if only you knew it." Ain't gonna happen. Ever. Not in the Catholic Church.

And in a decision of a really stupid (IMO) ‘trans moment’ the last production of Top Girls at Liverpool Everyman had a trans woman play Pope Joan.