Can we talk about bisexuality?

I totally get this and agree as lesbian woman.

Things have changed, however I do feel the tide will change again. It seems like a popular period in time to be some form of queer and I think this will change again and thing for us will change again.

Maybe not though!

You're brave to mention it also, as I think a lot of lesbians experience it. Ifs just not widely discussed.

Even gayscenes are very very different these days.

No, you misunderstand my post (perhaps deliberately), this is about the formation of an identity.

We all know that homosexual activity was illegal for the majority of the 20th century. But the laws were around acts, not the idea of a "gay man". The concept of sexual orientation goes back to the 1800s, but then there is a further formation of an identity around sexual orientation much later.

This thread is very much about labels, and for a long time people didn't have labels for WHO they are, but WHAT they were.

I am not sure what you mean, or maybe, I'm not sure what your point is.

Have only read the first post so no doubt I'm repeating what others have said but totally agree with you OP. I'm bi but have been with a man for many years, and don't feel I need or deserve any place in your community except on the outside as an ally to my lesbian sisters.

As you so eloquently said, to all intents and purposes I'm straight and will be viewed as such, I've never been on the receiving end of homophobia and it's not my place to claim to understand this from personal experience. If I was with a woman it would be different. Very few of my friends know my sexuality because who cares? The whole "bi visibility" thing annoys me. "We" are not invisible, it's just not relevant or necessary to go through life harping on about it.

I feel strongly because I have a friend in exactly the same position as me who will not shut up about being "queer" and representing LGBTQ people at Pride and so forth and I think it's not right, it's insulting to lesbians.

I feel like the younger generation have to have a collection of labels to define themselves which they cling to through thick and thin.

I mean - as far as "why would bisexual people be excluded".

If you are talking about people trying to get some kind of law passed, for example, or a group looking to get a clinic started up, surely even bisexual people in a straight relationship might feel a strong interest in that?

It's the social stuff that seems more fraught, and I suppose the question is, what is the purpose of a sexuality specific social event where it's not about dating? Is it that you might all have shared experiences of being in a same sex relationship? Is it to not feel like others are judging you? Is it to have a group that doesn't have any men, or any women, there? Is it a group that's existed for a long time and it's about established relationships - (in which case what happens when a person goes from having a same sex partner to an an opposite sex one, they can't participate any more?)

There seems to be an element of, I feel these people are"my community." And not everyone feels that equally, there are plenty of gay and lesbian people who have no interest in any of that stuff, their social identity isn't invested in the community at all. Others on the other hand see it as deeply important.

But there could easily be people who, when younger, invest a lot of themselves in being part of that community - but later end up in an opposite sex relationship. If they've mainly seen their social life and identity being around that particular group though, I am sure it would feel like a loss and rejection to suddenly be unwanted.

By that definition, I've identified as bisexual for over 30 years - basically since I realised I wasn't a lesbian.

That seems to confirm that the experience of being bisexual is specific and different from being homosexual, so why LGB?

Because if I want to marry a woman, I should be able to as easily as if I want to marry a man? Bis have civil rights demands identical to lesbians and gays.

It's often social spaces, not political spaces, where the differences become apparent.

I am bisexual and in a long term heterosexual relationship. I think it’s probably just about people being sensitive to one another.

For example, people feel free to make homophobic remarks in front of me because they think I’m straight. That is pretty unpleasant to be honest. But it’s not same as getting abuse in the street when I hold hands with my OH. So if we were talking about abuse I would probably not want to take a prominent role is speaking about it in a group. But I might ask if anyone shared my experience and wanted to talk about it in a separate place/time (like how you feel if for your own safety you say nothing at the time and then feel horribly guilty!). It’s not the same but neither is it unrelated. A bit of mutual understanding and knowing when to be quiet (!) can be helpful.

It's coming across loud and clear: bisexual people experience bi phobia, bisexual people experience it from L&G and straight people, bisexual people 'have the right to be honest about who we are.'
Which confirms the idea that LG+B is not the ideal grouping as it includes different, though related, groups.

This so one of the nastiest, most biphobic and small minded posts I’ve ever seen on mumsnet.

Being in a heterosexual relationship doesn’t change your sexuality. You are still attracted to both sexes. You’re history - your dating history and sexual history is still a mixed bag. And while bi people may pass as heterosexual while in opposite sex relationships, this ‘hidden was’ comes with issues of its own. People assume that you are straight and you can either go along with that and feel as if you are lying about yourself constantly, or correct them and be in a cycle of constantly coming out (and having people’s vision/ opinion of you change - not something that SHOULD happen in this day and age but something that does).

It sounds as if you think bi people in heterosexual relationships should just shut up and be invisible and have no say in gay rights/spaces etc? That they have no need to come together for support in common issues that they may experience?

Bi visibility is very important. Normalising bisexuality is important. Especially as an example to children/teens who are just discovering their sexuality. The reason I was so confused about my sexuality as a teen is because I didn’t know being bi was a valid option. I had no vision of what it looked like to grow up and be a bi adult. By being honest about our identity and sexuality, we can help future generations avoid this problem.

How unbelievably exclusionary of you to try and invalidate, hide and shut down a whole group of people talking and sharing their own experiences on the basis of who they have chosen to love.

It's a form of biphobia to think that a bi person who is currently in an mixed-sex relationship is out because they want to be special. We have the right to be honest about who we are.

By the way, in Days of Yore when there were actual lesbian venues, we - us lesbians, or at least me and my pals - knew that there were bi women and straight women enjoying an evening of women-only company, and it mostly didn't bother us.

It did bother us a bit if we felt that there was a group of straight women who were watching us as if we were a different species - that did happen occasionally, but not often. And of course it got complicated if you were chatted up by/chatted up somebody you thought was a lesbian, because it was a lesbian venue/event, who turned out not to be.

My comments have been about groups organising around specific issues, not personal or social interactions.

You raise some interesting questions @Pluvia.

I agree with you that anyone straight coming along to an LGB event is off, but surely there are firm polite guardrails you can set around this without needing to exclude bi people? L,G and B are generally grouped together either because they all have same sex attraction, or because they all experience some of the same prejudices because they are same sex attracted. I don’t see how you can think bi people don’t fit into that group, unless you have totally different criteria?

Otherwise I don’t really agree.

For clarity, I am bi and married to a woman who I’ve been with for ten years and we have two kids together.

Your point about bi women in straight relationships not experiencing day to day prejudices because they pass as straight. Yes that’s probably true. But bi women do experience some of the same prejudices as lesbians, as well as some that are unique, some of which come from within the LGB community. Even women currently with men will have experienced these prejudices in the past and probably still experience some now if they are open about being bi.

So, why draw boundaries based on the level and kind of prejudice being experienced? This will also hugely differ within the lesbian community. Would a butch lesbian experience more casual homophobia than a straight looking one - yes of course? Would you say one has more right to be in your group than the other, no of course not, they are both welcome. If a straight woman chose to wear her hair very short and dress in a stereotypically lesbian way, and experienced homophobia, would she belong in your group? No of course not, she’s not same sex attracted.

Why let hostile bigots who dislike some people more than others, or make assumptions based on appearance, but ultimately still hate us all, determine who you let in?

By excluding bi women or distinguishing between acceptable bi women and unacceptable ones, you also risk doing real harm.

Coming to terms with being bi, is hard. A combination of compulsory heterosexuality and biphobia mean being bi is not an appealing prospect for many women young and old, and lots of bi women will consciously or unconsciously feel they should just be straight because it’s easier. They will feel even more like this if you exclude them from a setting where they could see women loving women being nice, normal and acceptable and tell them they are not welcome!! Compulsory heterosexuality also means plenty of women who will later identify as lesbians marry men. Are they not welcome in your group either?

You may think, well yes it is easier for bi women to just go out with only men, what is the harm. They have an easy option, so if they chose it they aren’t welcome in my group.

Would you say the same thing to someone saying it is easier to only date people the same colour as them, or the same religion, or the same social class - so they should flatten and repress any attraction or love they feel towards other people? I imagine not. Repressing or denying a part of yourself is damaging. As a teenager lesbian was a slur so when I felt crushes on girls I agonised over whether this meant I was one and used to lie awake at night visualising a hammer smashing into my head whenever I had sexual thoughts about girls. It took until I was 26 to accept that maybe it was okay to be interested in women too and I still feel some degree of self hatred about it now - because that’s how being part of a hated minority affects you - how much harder it is if that minority also excludes you. It takes many others longer to accept themselves, and many will end up with men, more if they feel excluded from the LGB world. Once I did come to terms with it, I had to content with loads of biphobia from lesbians who thought most bi women were unreliable, slutty, cheaters or in denial about being lesbians. From men who thought I was slutty, up for threesomes, or that it was a kink. And from straight women who thought I couldn’t be trusted around their husbands, or was doing it for attention.

Also this... I am just me. I happen to love.and spend my life with my wife to be.

I don't use my sexuality as ny identity, tend to be private in that regard.

I do get if it comes to more deeper social events etc why op has this issue.

However, I am a lesbian, i am a private lesbian, most wouldn't assume I am.

50 years ago is too recent, but it's absolutely true that the idea of a gay or lesbian person as an identity, as a type of person, is historically relatively recent. Historically it' also very unusual, and some of the most similar examples are some of the third sex categories for gay men that existed in some cultures.

In most cultures, even those where there were no real taboos around same sex sex (actually, probably especially those), it was just something that some people liked to do. It often wasn't exclusive from marriage and family life, either, which had much more utilitarian ends.

There is some thought that being gay and lesbian emerges as a social identity mainly where it is in some way suppressed. Otherwise it doesn't coalesce into the same kind of sense of a community apart from others.

From that perspective, the OP questions could be interpreted in terms of changes in the community as a result of more widespread acceptance of same sex oriented sexuality.

Exactly.

I think it's probably more useful to talk about lesbian or gay relationships when it comes to bisexuality.

Assuming monogamy (most people) then a bisexual is, when in a relationship, in either a homosexual or heterosexual relationship. So a bisexual might be in a lesbian relationship but when in a relationship with a man they would be indistinguishable from any other heterosexual.

For the purposes of events involving the LGB, I don't think bisexual people in a heterosexual relationship qualify to be involved any more than any other heterosexual person. That is, they should take a step back unless any straight person could also sensibly be involved.

But that's just my opinion.

This exactly.

Being bisexual in a same sex relationship isn't the same as being bisexual in. Hetero relationship.

Bisexuality is that, two differing sides dependent on how life pans out, then depends on differing views of others that needs the rights of lgbt.

So in a hetero relationship, viewed differently by society than in same sex relationship.

Totally different treatment by society as a Whole.
I get it op.

open.spotify.com/track/0bzBVZPCRA4WA4bGJul72G?si=mU9DnBDvTFemxKkCgq5hZw

If you're bi in a straight relationship why would you want to go to lesbian events.

Also wondering why your straight male partner would want to attend.

@TheCatsTongue "It's interesting that 50 years ago, straight people and gay people didn't exist. You were just a person who had same-sex relationships. There was no identity around it. Think of it more akin to hair or eye colour."
Where was it like this-Alpha Centauri?

I mean they did not think of themselves as bisexual.