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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we talk about bisexuality?

462 replies

Pluvia · 25/01/2025 10:58

Just that really. I'm a lesbian, one of a number seeking to rebuild new lesbian and LGB networks after our established communities and events and hang-outs and culture have been trashed by the TQIA+ brigade.

Lesbians and gay men are feeling really beleaguered. We've seen almost every sphere of gay and lesbian life infiltrated by 'queer', trans and spicy straight people all using the events and groups we've founded for their own purposes — mainly of validation. Pride has been taken over by the T. Our cafes, pubs, bars, all gone.

I think a significant number of gay and lesbian activists are finding it increasingly difficult to work out where bisexuality fits into all this. I'm in a number of different LGB groups and this issue has started to crop up in them. People who join describing themselves as bisexual and wanting to get involved in helping rebuild their local LGB communities turn out to be in long-term, stable heterosexual relationships. Some of them for 20+ years. Some bi people in such relationships want to involve their straight partners on the basis that although the partner is straight, they are in relationship with a bi person who isn't — but who, to the outside world, looks straight.

Does it matter? Well, if you're in a heterosexual relationship you're unlikely to experience the everyday (usually minor) moments that most of us who are out still encounter. Things like the need to come out regularly to people who assume that we're in straight relationships, the slight but still palpable 'othering' that sometimes comes when people realise they're talking to someone who isn't just like them. Sometimes it's much more pointed. And if we hold, say, an LGB club night, so that LGB people can associate without the straight gaze, should we allow bisexuals to bring their straight partners? Doesn't that negate the intention of the event?

Bisexual people who are living in a heterosexual relationship have the security of being undercover. They may not see it like that, of course, but they pass as straight. I'm pretty sure that one of the bi women who's involved in one of the groups I'm in is a straight woman who bases her bisexual identity on the fact that she had a relationship with a woman while at university, many years ago.

I don't know if there's a solution to this. I think lesbians and gay men are much more cautious around the dangers of self-ID and identity politics than they ever were. How are other groups handling this?

OP posts:
JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 21:40

@LeopardSnow because it is not acceptable to advertise that an event is open to lesbians and bi women only in relationships with women.

Themaths · 25/01/2025 21:36

Violintime · 25/01/2025 21:10

I’m a woman. My partner is a lesbian.

Would I be “lesbian enough” for you? Was I “not lesbian enough” when I was with my exDH?

What is my sexuality? I honestly don’t know. Are you saying my sexuality is entirely dependent on who my partner is?

If I can’t fit myself into a neat box how do I know which social event to attend????!

Did you want to go to LGB spaces with your exDH?

LeopardSnow · 25/01/2025 21:36

MoreAgreeableMyArse · 25/01/2025 21:24

I am bisexual.
In that, I find women sexually and romantically attractive and
I also find men sexually and romantically attractive.
I am happily married to a man with nearly grown up children.

I have never met a lesbian woman in person that was both interested in me and made me feel 'that way', whilst single. So I have never had a relationship beyond flirting with a woman.

That is just a numbers game. I am nevertheless bisexual.
I don't consider it an identity

I am not discriminated against on the basis of my bisexuality because no one in my life knows ( except my partner)
If they did and I was discriminated against on the basis of it , it would not be bisexualphobia, it would be homphobia.

Bisexuals have NO CLAIM over lesbian spaces, which are precious and rare and essential for women with such a tiny dating pool. I alway knew this on a gut level and stepped lightly.

It is another Trojan horse.
Give it no further moral consideration. Stand firm and please accept my profound apologies on behalf of society.

These spicy straights are not interested in vaginas

Fair enough. What about bisexual women who are dating women, or married to women. Why exclude them? In meaningful terms what is the actual difference between me - bisexual and married to a woman for ten years with two kids together - but dated three men and two women before. And my friend - lesbian, in a relationship with a woman for the last two years, but tried dating men and on a purely numbers basis has slept with more men than me. I only know this because she was upset about someone being unkind about non gold star lesbians and she was making a point that it’s super common for lesbians to have slept with men and asked various friends.

I wouldn’t want to come to a lesbian event, if it was made explicit that bisexual women weren’t welcome of course and I expect my lesbian (gold star) wife wouldn’t either tbh. But my question is why wouldn’t I be welcome? Why make it a lesbians only event and not an event for LGB women, or women who love women or same sex attracted women or whatever. What is the actual difference and why does it matter?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 25/01/2025 21:31

Pluvia · 25/01/2025 16:56

Right. There you are, then. Leave it to the Ls and Gs...

I think you'll note that a lot of lesbians and gays are also too scared to set up a gender-critical L or G group.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 25/01/2025 21:30

MoreAgreeableMyArse · 25/01/2025 21:24

I am bisexual.
In that, I find women sexually and romantically attractive and
I also find men sexually and romantically attractive.
I am happily married to a man with nearly grown up children.

I have never met a lesbian woman in person that was both interested in me and made me feel 'that way', whilst single. So I have never had a relationship beyond flirting with a woman.

That is just a numbers game. I am nevertheless bisexual.
I don't consider it an identity

I am not discriminated against on the basis of my bisexuality because no one in my life knows ( except my partner)
If they did and I was discriminated against on the basis of it , it would not be bisexualphobia, it would be homphobia.

Bisexuals have NO CLAIM over lesbian spaces, which are precious and rare and essential for women with such a tiny dating pool. I alway knew this on a gut level and stepped lightly.

It is another Trojan horse.
Give it no further moral consideration. Stand firm and please accept my profound apologies on behalf of society.

These spicy straights are not interested in vaginas

@MoreAgreeableMyArse
Bisexuals have NO CLAIM over lesbian spaces..

The OP isn’t talking about lesbian spaces, she is referring to Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual spaces:
I'm in a number of different LGB groups

But wants to gatekeep out Bisexuals who are being openly bisexual…..

Theuniversalshere1 · 25/01/2025 21:25

MoreAgreeableMyArse · 25/01/2025 21:24

I am bisexual.
In that, I find women sexually and romantically attractive and
I also find men sexually and romantically attractive.
I am happily married to a man with nearly grown up children.

I have never met a lesbian woman in person that was both interested in me and made me feel 'that way', whilst single. So I have never had a relationship beyond flirting with a woman.

That is just a numbers game. I am nevertheless bisexual.
I don't consider it an identity

I am not discriminated against on the basis of my bisexuality because no one in my life knows ( except my partner)
If they did and I was discriminated against on the basis of it , it would not be bisexualphobia, it would be homphobia.

Bisexuals have NO CLAIM over lesbian spaces, which are precious and rare and essential for women with such a tiny dating pool. I alway knew this on a gut level and stepped lightly.

It is another Trojan horse.
Give it no further moral consideration. Stand firm and please accept my profound apologies on behalf of society.

These spicy straights are not interested in vaginas

Well said 👏

MoreAgreeableMyArse · 25/01/2025 21:24

I am bisexual.
In that, I find women sexually and romantically attractive and
I also find men sexually and romantically attractive.
I am happily married to a man with nearly grown up children.

I have never met a lesbian woman in person that was both interested in me and made me feel 'that way', whilst single. So I have never had a relationship beyond flirting with a woman.

That is just a numbers game. I am nevertheless bisexual.
I don't consider it an identity

I am not discriminated against on the basis of my bisexuality because no one in my life knows ( except my partner)
If they did and I was discriminated against on the basis of it , it would not be bisexualphobia, it would be homphobia.

Bisexuals have NO CLAIM over lesbian spaces, which are precious and rare and essential for women with such a tiny dating pool. I alway knew this on a gut level and stepped lightly.

It is another Trojan horse.
Give it no further moral consideration. Stand firm and please accept my profound apologies on behalf of society.

These spicy straights are not interested in vaginas

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 21:21

Violintime · 25/01/2025 21:10

I’m a woman. My partner is a lesbian.

Would I be “lesbian enough” for you? Was I “not lesbian enough” when I was with my exDH?

What is my sexuality? I honestly don’t know. Are you saying my sexuality is entirely dependent on who my partner is?

If I can’t fit myself into a neat box how do I know which social event to attend????!

There are lots of LGBT, LB groups and events, which I am sure you are aware of

Fawn87 · 25/01/2025 21:17

Greenbottle123 · 25/01/2025 21:02

What is a ‘spicy straight’ person?

Someone who shags the same sex for shits and giggles or to please the partner they're with. Or who is open to anything because it's "naughty".

Violintime · 25/01/2025 21:10

I’m a woman. My partner is a lesbian.

Would I be “lesbian enough” for you? Was I “not lesbian enough” when I was with my exDH?

What is my sexuality? I honestly don’t know. Are you saying my sexuality is entirely dependent on who my partner is?

If I can’t fit myself into a neat box how do I know which social event to attend????!

MarieDeGournay · 25/01/2025 21:09

I can happily confirm to any straight or bi women who has had relationships with men, and then decides, at any stage in their lives, that they are in fact lesbian, that they will be warmly embracedGrin
I can verify that because...let me see, where's my abacus.... slightly over half of my exes had been previously straight. And let me check...yup, they are all still happily 100% lesbian. Or 100% happily lesbianSmile

I'd also like to reiterate that I wouldn't feel that a straight or bi woman was 'intruding' if it was a big lesbian social event [not that they exist any more..]

I can't even imagine a woman bringing a male partner to a lesbian event.
My comments are more about the identities that constitute the group known as 'LGB' than personal and social interaction.

Theuniversalshere1 · 25/01/2025 21:08

Greenbottle123 · 25/01/2025 21:02

What is a ‘spicy straight’ person?

Someone who enjoys queer culture but is by society's terms straight or heterosexual.

Greenbottle123 · 25/01/2025 21:02

What is a ‘spicy straight’ person?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 25/01/2025 21:01

Just a few thoughts

  • Did grow up hearing that bisexual doesn’t exist, despite knowing I am
  • this erasure still happens even on this thread with our relationships being called “hetero” when it’s with a man or “lesbian” when it’s with a woman. NO they are all bisexual relationships.
  • the post about how we need to be “out and proud” by having only same sex relationships is again, erasure, by saying you’re only out of the closet when you act like a lesbian. NO - all our relationships are bisexual ones and we ARE out the closet. You think we don’t tell our partners our sexuality? Think we hide it? Bringing a male partner to LGB is being OUT as a bisexual. Posters not liking this fact of our existence and calling it a “hetero” relationship is again erasure, and saying we should have the decency to not come to LGB events is demanding bisexuals stay in the closet.
  • You don’t know the inner life of any us, how dare you assume that relationships are the same between us and men as it is for straight women and men, or between us and women as it is for two lesbians.
  • Yes our experiences are different from that of lesbians, but we aren’t living life like a straight person.
Truthlikeness · 25/01/2025 20:54

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 25/01/2025 16:24

News of it would get out. I like not receiving hate male§ and not being hounded out of my job.

§ I'm leaving that typo because it's very apt.

Edited

GC bisexual groups exist, they just keep a low profile.

dottieautie · 25/01/2025 20:53

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 19:47

@dottieautie There are lots of LGB places. The man I discussed can go to gay pubs with his wife. He can go to plenty of LGBTQ groups and events.
But he has been married for many many years. He has zero understanding of what having a same sex relationship is like.
I mean we can go down the route of thinking only self identity matters, and material reality is unimportant?

But so does any gay virgin who hasn’t yet embarked upon a same sex relationship be they 21, 31 or 61. Do they only become part of the community once they’ve checked off your material reality boxes of having experienced homophobia, same sex intercourse and a same sex relationship?

Your example aside, I assume you feel this way about all gays and lesbians regardless of being in a hetero relationship or not, who haven’t experienced all of the above criteria?

And in your example why should he take his wife to a gay club? She doesn’t belong there any more than any other straight woman. Why can’t he attend an LGB event on his own? You claim because his lack of experience… which circles round to my opening point in this post, is a 21 year old shy virgin also not welcome
because of lack of actual homosexual experience?

Saschka · 25/01/2025 20:38

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 20:35

@Saschka I agree. Which is why the experience of someone in a long term opposite relationship is very different to those in same sex relationships

I wouldn’t dispute that, and I also wouldn’t have any interest in going to a lesbian event. I definitely wouldn’t take DH along!

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 20:35

@Saschka I agree. Which is why the experience of someone in a long term opposite relationship is very different to those in same sex relationships

Saschka · 25/01/2025 20:32

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 20:28

@Saschka so it was easier to be with a man?

Yep, I don’t think anyone disputes it is easier socially to be in a heterosexual relationship than in a gay relationship do they? Hence all the closeted gay men in fake marriages.

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 20:28

@Saschka so it was easier to be with a man?

Saschka · 25/01/2025 20:24

Theuniversalshere1 · 25/01/2025 16:49

If you and pp above, feel more attracted to women than men... why are you with a man?

Just out of curiosity
I am lesbian so I do often wonder, why you haven't seeked a relationship with a woman over a man?

Just totally it of curiosity

If you are more into women rhan men, does your partner know and not feel they are holding you back?

Not the poster you quoted, but:

When I first started experimenting with lesbian relationships as a teenager, the response I got from lesbians was universally negative (all the things people have posted here - just pretending, slutty, make your mind up, etc). I had several relationships with bisexual women and they were really great, but we experienced a lot of external homophobia (assaults, sexual harassment from men, etc). And this was in Brighton, fuck knows how bad it would have been anywhere else.

I met DH and although I find women more attractive than men, it is socially easier to be in a heterosexual relationship. I also knew I wanted kids, and IVF wasn’t available for lesbians in 2001. Now I have a child, and I wouldn’t want to disrupt his life by breaking up my marriage.

If my marriage ended (death or divorce) I might give a lesbian relationship another go, or I might stay single. I definitely wouldn’t date another man.

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 19:47

@dottieautie There are lots of LGB places. The man I discussed can go to gay pubs with his wife. He can go to plenty of LGBTQ groups and events.
But he has been married for many many years. He has zero understanding of what having a same sex relationship is like.
I mean we can go down the route of thinking only self identity matters, and material reality is unimportant?

75578FB · 25/01/2025 19:46

dottieautie · 25/01/2025 19:21

I’m curious. What if the man in the apparently heterosexual relationship with a bisexual woman was also bisexual? Would he be unwelcome for arriving in a male/female relationship or would this scenario be ok? How would the L&G community gate-keep bisexuals? Declare orientation prior to entry?

I’m Playing devils advocate a bit as I’ve had this conversation with friends before and we
ciuldnt come to any suitable conclusion for all.

When its this complicated would the solution be women only events.

Bi peoples can have their own events.

Sorry to again use a deaf reference. Deaf people are not included in the para Olympics. They have their own Olympics along with other sporting events that they are very proud of.

Is inclusion causing division Is the feeling of support the most important thing with people who live your experience or is it something else?

dottieautie · 25/01/2025 19:43

JoyousGreyOrca · 25/01/2025 19:26

Why is it a commonality?
He has not had any homophobia. He has never had sex with a man, or a relationship.

So you only get to be part of the LG(B) community if you’ve faced homophobia and had the privilege of a relationship
and sex?

what about extremely shy gay men? Those who cannot perform sexually for whatever reason? Those who have experienced acceptance from the moment they realised they were gay?

NoCarbsForMe · 25/01/2025 19:40

WomensSports · 25/01/2025 15:20

As an L, this thread makes me so sad for all the times we all stood side by side and fought hard for our collective rights, freedoms, and to change social perceptions of all three groups. By the same logic from this thread, why would L's and G's socialise together at all or have a group for both? I have nothing in common with a gay man at all. My lived experience is totally different, my rights and cultural capital is different. My personal safety is different. The issues that affect me are different.
I think we all stand together or separately, but not "L+G" and "B". This sort of divisive nonsense belongs in the past.

Fair point.

I guess it depends on the reason for the group maybe?