"NHS Fife nurse allowed to call trans doctor a man during employment tribunal"

The fact it's purely factual is the problem for trans identifying males though - as they want to compel everyone to lie.

Medicine has no place for the supernatural or quasi science. I want my medical professionals to deal in scientific facts, and well researched qualitative and quantitative evidence based practices.

That would be nice. Let me know when it happens.

I think so too. It’s just a record of what’s being discussed. And the fact that the public can discuss the case is… surely the point of open justice?

If a doctor of medicine doesn't realise it's not physiologically possible to change sex, I'd not be confident with their assessment / diagnosis/ treatment or fitness to practice. If a medical practitioner told me if was 'God' making me ill or 'God' was curing me I'd be putting in a complaint to the GMC quicker than a bolt of lightening,
Medicine has no place for the supernatural or quasi science. I want my medical professionals to deal in scientific facts, and well researched qualitative and quantitative evidence based practices.
Leave your own belief system at home, it has no place in the work place. Outside of work, do whatever you want to do (within the realms of the law), wear whatever you want to wear, worship whatever you want to worship, request to be addressed as you want to be addressed by all means, but don't bring any of that into a professional work setting.

I thought TT just reported background and what was said in the tribunal. It’s all factual stuff and never noticed any ‘opinion’ pieces.

It's interesting that the Telegraph article reports that TT will be allowed to report if they are "fair and accurate". Given that anyone can request online access, what about anyone else who reports something that is not considered "fair and accurate"? If anyone does, it will not be discernible which online viewer posted it - so I don't think the judge would have any option other than excluding all online viewers (with the possible exception of TT if they're special!) in that case. I wonder if the judge has thought this through? In particular, given that it's apparently normal to allow the public to access these hearings online, whether any justification has been anticipated for treating this case specially? (It goes without saying that everyone here should take care to be accurate. "Fair" may be in the eye of the beholder and may have to take its chances...)

It may be a disconnect - but maybe not.

It has long (over 300 years) been established that an English court cannot compel people to speak against their conscience. Admittedly for jurors and in criminal matters. However the principle stands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushel%27s_Case

I am aware this is a Scottish jurisdiction.

I agree

Sandy Kemp is a good judge

Absolutely! @anyolddinosaur

One person's preference about pronouns came into it because of the revision of the Equal Treatment Bench Book, in which a disproportionately long section was (re?) written by gender activists. Who were able to construct their wish list, with no reference to anyone else's rights or obligations.

How can anyone promise to tell the truth and then be obliged to lie? It makes no sense at all.

She said its [Tribunal Tweets] content was often reproduced on platforms like Mumsnet, where “objectionable and offensive” partisan commentary would be added by other internet users.

So identifying male people as male is ‘partisan’ now is it?

Vive la révolution!

Oh gosh women might actually want to talk about something that affects them. This is not Afghanistan yet, despite NHS Fife's best attempts to make it so. Wonder what they would do for nurses if pesky women were denied any rights. Of course they'd like to forbid the Times to publish too, but the Times might sue them if they suggested the Times reporting was biased while they feel they can defame Tribunal Tweets with impunity.

If Dr Upton becomes very upset by biological reality Dr Upton really needs to consider whether the NHS is the best place to work. Dr Upton will be reminded on a daily basis that however much you may wish you were a different sex you can only try to mimic what that might look like. It really is not good for him to have to deal with the physical reality of bodies. Obviously his employer considers his mental health fragile - so why have they not encouraged him to use the private changing area he created where he wont be viewing nurses female bodies on a daily basis? You'd think that observing how his body can never actually be female would trigger his dysphoria, if that dysphoria is genuine.

Wonder what a good reason is? Mine would be that I don’t call males she.

‘She said its content was often reproduced on platforms like Mumsnet, where “objectionable and offensive” partisan commentary would be added by other internet users.’

ooooh hurty words! How to cope ? (Hint : don’t read Mumsnet FWR, stick to Pink News which is firmly on the right side of history).

Normal, standard, longstanding accepted English usage of 3rd person pronouns = accords with reality

Preferred pronouns = compelling others to lie.

Given people are supposed to tell the truth in court, I really don't understand how one person's preference could have ever come into it.

Woman having opinions that recognise reality and don't match some blokes over-inflated ego and delusional sense of self = offensive dontcha know?

I'm sure he'd prefer some kind of Taliban like state of muteness for all actual women, while the only 'women' allowed to speak are men like him.

Jane Russell represented Garden Court Chambers in the Allison Bailey case and, I think, CGD in the Maya Forstater case. She must be a glutton for punishment.

I mean I suppose it's less coercively controlling than the NHS of course, which is compelling this nurse lie in a medical setting at the cost of her own dignity, safety, respect, truth, honesty and presumably patients' safety too. There will be plenty of patients who need single sex care and would be deceived into thinking this doctor was female by the NHS, seemingly. It's horrendously abusive, and frankly outrageous that a medical setting - where reality matters - is doing this. What next, are patients going to be compelled to pretend they don't have the diseases they have ('identify' as well)?

I'm looking forward to the peaking experience of the judge trying not to use any pronouns. And hopefully getting jumped on just like nurse Peggie would be in the workplace when inevitably mistakes (in the direction of normal, standard English usage) are made.

Despite NHS Fife insisting that both the "sex and gender" of Dr Upton is female...

Some more words I thought I would never, in a million years, write: Thank God for Trump.

It sounds like coercive control by the court.

You don't know what the boundaries are, you don't know when you're going to get it wrong because it's subjective and controlled by someone else, you can't rely on normal English usage, who knows when you'll step over the line, you're made to question what is natural and normal, so you're walking on eggshells.

Sex-based pronouns are normal, longstanding English usage. This is NORMAL, the use of 'preferred pronouns' is ABNORMAL and requires someone pretend to believe in an untruth - that someone is the opposite sex. So then you're using sex deception pronouns. Given sex is critical to the whole case (and the continuation of LIFE ON EARTH... sigh) then it is biased of the court to require anything other than natural English usage.

The sheer brass neck of NHS Fife insisting this doctor's gender and sex are both female!!!!

Jane Russell, the lawyer representing NHS Fife and Dr Upton, had claimed she had “serious concerns” about the “citizen journalist” platform which she argued would present a warped version of events.

She said its content was often reproduced on platforms like Mumsnet, where “objectionable and offensive” partisan commentary would be added by other internet users.

Not as fucking objectionable and offensive as forcing women to take their clothes off in front of men.

The end to this misogynistic madness cannot come soon enough.

My blushes, Watson ....

Reported in the Telegraph

https://archive.ph/avJeX

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/26/scotland-transgender-nhs-fife-employment-tribunal-nurse/

Those nasty vipers at MN get a mention 👋 apparently if Tribunal Tweets are allowed to live tweet we might <clutches pearls> talk about it 😳

Men who are upset by being called men should avoid demanding that other people pretend they are women.
As a refusal often offends.