"NHS Fife nurse allowed to call trans doctor a man during employment tribunal"

Or how painful and distressing it is to be forced, against your will, to use wrong sex pronouns? I personally find it very painful and very distressing to even contemplate being forced to lie about the reality I see.

I think this is a significant aspect of the on-going conflict. There are many people who don't care about using words/terms that conflict with their beliefs/views or care about males being in female single sex spaces. I believe that they are entitled to hold these views, whether I agree with them or not. However, I do think they should recognise that others feel differently and, like them, are entitled to hold these different views.

In a liberal, democratic society, we should adopt the position whereby we recognise that there are deeply held conflicting views and beliefs about pronouns and some people experience distress when their preferences aren't followed. We can also recognise that it isn't reasonable to expect others to preside over whose preferences should be adopted/rejected and enforced. Instead, we need people to learn to tolerate the choices of others

It has not yet been established that Dr Upton had any right to be in female spaces without the consent of those present.

so I'll amend that to

"Kemp added that Dr upton and his lawyers “may wish to reflect” on whether it was “necessary or appropriate” for Dr Upton to use female pronouns, even though they are legally permitted to do so. He added that "Dr Upton should consider if it is gratuitously offensively and harassment to do so on a repeated basis”.

"Kemp added that the bar for harassment could be met if male pronouns were used for Dr Upton “gratuitously and offensively on a repeated basis”. He added that Peggie and her lawyers “may wish to reflect” on whether it was “necessary or appropriate” to misgender Dr Upton, even though they are legally permitted to do so. "

Now imagine a different scenario:

"Kemp added that the bar for harassment could be met if female spaces were used by Dr Upton “gratuitously and offensively on a repeated basis”. He added that Dr upton and his lawyers “may wish to reflect” on whether it was “necessary or appropriate” for Dr Upton to use the rooms, even though they are legally permitted to do so. "

Hmm

Double edged sword.

Or how painful and distressing it is to be forced, against your will, to use wrong sex pronouns? I personally find it very painful and very distressing to even contemplate being forced to lie about the reality I see.

I think perhaps in part it's because I recognise the underlying assumption beneath this that - as a woman - I am 'less than' any man's wants. It's being treated as less deserving of equal human rights. And a court is a place where truth should matter. But apparently, if you're female maybe not because male feelings matter more than females' right to safety and their own truthful, honest speech.

I think in part with wrong-sex pronouns it's because I see it as a potentially serious safeguarding failure. As it is in this case. Sex is important for safeguarding and lying about it undermines safeguarding. This is important for adults, but even more so it's important for children. No-one seems to care about children though.

From the Telegraph article: "Mr Kemp acknowledged that “misgendering” of Dr Upton is likely to prove “painful and distressing”

Did he acknowledge how painful and distressing it is for women to have to change with a man in their changing room? Or how painful and distressing it might be for them to have to observe him exposing himself in their changing room?

From the Telegraph article: "Mr Kemp acknowledged that “misgendering” of Dr Upton is likely to prove “painful and distressing”

That's because the truth often hurts, and the only person doing any misgendering is the man who calls himself a women.

IIRC, during the first Trump presidency, the use of the term "my truth" spiked considerably, due to their affluent use of it. Case in point was Kellyanne Conway's use of the term "alternative facts".
This administration certainly launched both these terms to fame, and I saw them quickly adopted into gender-mainstream argumentation.

Because somehow, no matter how many women, it’s always the women who have to budge up and be nice.

It shows again, too, that "living as a woman" comes at the expense of women who have to take part in the charade to make it valid, at their own expense.

From the Telegraph article: "Mr Kemp acknowledged that “misgendering” of Dr Upton is likely to prove “painful and distressing”

But as pp said, the distress for the other women is apparently not a problem.

I think that institutions like the NHS haven't really thought this through before adopting advice from Stonewall & Co.: NHS said in 2021, that three quarters of NHS staff are women (of 1,3 million people).
Why would you want to risk losing or antagonizing this kind of workforce?
https://www.england.nhs.uk/2021/03/nhs-celebrates-the-vital-role-hundreds-of-thousands-of-women-have-played-in-the-pandemic/

Love her!

Fabulous, fabulous woman.

How do you refer to a biological male as he in an offensive manner?
The fucking tiptoeing we’re expected to do is beyond all reason.

I come from a Fife, pro home rule, Socialist, coalmining family…and my favourite politician is a Tory Baroness.

I was going to say that my ancestors will be birling…but, actually, they’d agree with her.

‘Dr Beth Upton’ is not going to look, move or speak like a female person, so with the best will in the world I think it’s unlikely that anyone who clocks the full name on the ID badge wouldn’t be aware of a trans identity.

Thank you Datun for your googling. That is just excellent, knowing his arse from his elbow 🤣

How does a patient encountering them for the first (and likely last) time know that ? Or are hospitals not run for the patients (who do admittedly mess up all the statistics) ?

That wouldn't necessarily mean that all the staff at the hospital would know though. 'Dr Upton' could be either male or female. Other staff would only know about his GMC entry if they looked it up. I can't imagine all the staff at the hospital bothering to do this about one random doctor. I'd think they'd only do this if they were suspicious of his identity or something else about him.

^Dr Upton and NHS Fife have gone to some considerable lengths to suppress his identity but if you have seen his photograph your suspicions might be aroused by
his high forehead and beard.^

Excellent!

Haha!

I googled it, and yes, not knowing your lower alimentary canal from your lateral epicondyle it's pretty much your arse from your elbow.

What a woman 😄

Unlikely, as Dr Upton changed sex marker and name on the GMC register in April 2023.

The Baroness is a legend.

The Baroness has sent a letter.

Or does it mean that some people just think he's a man and have no idea about his trans identity?

I can't help wondering would he have tried it on when the changing room was full of women? Or if it had been occupied by a female Dr, especially one more senior to him? I also wonder if he's tried barging into the changing room when other nurses were there on their own.

I’m still a bit amazed at the good doctor’s statement that the fact that she was trans was not known to all staff at the hospital.

I think this person is confused about people being ‘too polite’ or ‘too feart for their job’ to say anything with ‘nobody has noticed I’m trans’.