I think the spell is finally broken...

My DH would kill for a Findus crispy pancake

Maybe Plastictrees is right after all. I'm hateful, batshit, and I'm going to have to admit to a secret loving of boil in the bag cod in parsley sauce.

Edit - apologies, easily distracted by mention of food. Ignore me.

I believe "empathy" is the new " be kind".

Naturally, we all understand exactly WHO is directed to have empathy for whom.

It never fucking changes.

'batshit'

I see.

I reserve my energy and compassion for women and girls.

I refuse to be browbeaten into being told whom I should and shouldn't care about.

Aw that is sweet of you but honestly I'm ok. The women here are anything but an echo chamber.

I learn so much from different perspectives, those with whom I agree and those with whom I don't, and my own ideas refine and evolve as a result. I get to continually challenge myself about whether the things I believe might be wrong and make sure I go back to first principles regularly to make sure I'm not just regurgitating thought terminating clichés.

One lesson I've learned over my life is to look at what people do not what they say. It's hard to carry that to an anonymous board of course 😂 but that principle does help me see through the performative empathy and ask the actually important question which is "So what do we do about that?"

(Oh, and another lesson I've learned is that when someone uses my own language back at me and it's not because they are quoting me or playing catch with the idea, they've run out of arguments and are just aping my style and hoping no one notices. I'm more than happy to explain what I mean by "rigid thinking". It's part of an explanatory framework for genderism that I have been evolving over several years now. Perhaps you would like to give a little more detail about why you used the phrase and what was underpinning your thinking in applying it to me?)

god @Plastictrees are you 15? your last few posts are the equivalent of "... so are you" and sticking your tongue out.

You have a one sided view of things - which is that women should budge up, from what your other posts were saying - and that is it. Tell you what, why don't you ask men to budge up?

or get your trans friends to campaign for 3rd spaces. Most women here would help you with that.

Who mentioned "intersex" up there? get in the sea. First, the term is DSDs and second people with DSDs have repeatedly asked the TRAs not to drag them into their campaigning.

It’s all just more of the same

If the answer is a no, no consent, it’s threats and insults

It has been going on for years.

then you will know we have been saying THAT for years and called all sorts and had all sorts of threats for taking that position.

So. meh.

@FlirtsWithRhinos My condolences to you and those who dwell within your echo chamber, I can only imagine how such rigid thinking can negatively impact your life. Sympathies 💐

The fact you probably genuinely believe this is the reason you don't see a way forward, the reason all you have is hand wringing and perfomative empathy, no belief in your own agency.

I feel very sorry for you.

Yawn. Enjoy your hateful echo chamber under the guise of women’s rights.

Banned from cross sex provisions, the trans and trans ally community regroup and start creating a grass roots whole new cultural phenomenon of agender spaces with two teeny single sex cubicles and a great big mixed sex palace as a Fuck You to the conservative right. New fashions, music genres and art arise out of it. Shocking at first, then edgy, then trendy, then beloved.

ah @FlirtsWithRhinos i already lived through the 70s...i don't really need it again (all that boil in the bag cod in parsley sauce and findus crispy pancakes)

@ChishiyaBat for a long time it was abuse and threats

Now this

We've been consistent, it's not a political position, it's simply no consent.

If groups in society want to work with the male sex class to create a better outcome they can.

i haven't really studied it, but i don't recall reading anywhere in the EO saying that trans people don't exisit.

I did read that sex is real and you can't claim the opposite sex and all the rights/priveliges that come with being that sex.

Nobody is denying that trans people exist. They are, in fact, reinforcing that fact by outlining where the boundaries are, legally, of being trans.

I saw a tweet from a female detransitioner this morning saying she had received lots of messages from young women identifying as nb or as men saying they are detransing (socially, it has all been social, afaik) and wearing women's clothes again.

I have sympathy, they are obviously confused and need therapy. But why suddenly change how you dress? i am wearing jeans, socks and a heavy metal band t-shirt. I'm also wearing my Grandad's watch (it has a lovely big face so i can read it without glasses). Why can't they continue to "dress as a man" as i apparently am?

There's going to be a lot of this over the next few weeks.

It's all so depressing. And we are still being told it's our fault. How dare we not have empathy!

And is anyone on this thread is saying they should not be supported or helped to move beyond whatever rigid thinking made them believe their mind was incompatible with their sex? No. All anyone is saying is that that support cannot include cross sex privileges, which it never should have done.

As a member of the psychology community, I'm sure you must have come across other situations where one person's "solution" to their pain causes them to damage someone else. Do you just sacrifice one to the other? No. (I hope) you help the damager to find a better way, and the victim to understand that they are not obligated to endure this damage out of sone misguided idea of loyalty, guilt or moral expectation.

As a member of the psychology community, I'm also sure you have come across people, maybe genuinely damaged people, who have learned to leverage the threat or even the act of self harm to get them what they want. Clearly that's not the act of a mentally healthy person and such people deserve sympathy and help. But they also need to accept that manipulative behaviour like this is coercive and unacceptable, and that ultimately it is no one else's job to be the outsourced keeper of their emotional stability.

So again I'm not sure what your point is. Will many be put in a hard position? Yes. Should transphobia, real transphobia that manifests itself as exclusion and abuse and may feel itself enabled by this EO be stamped on hard? Yes. Should there be help and support for those misled by the transition industry? Yes.

And that is a great opportunity for your community to stand up and show a better way to deal with these feelings than a false transition, and indeed for the countless trans rights groups and organisations to get stuck in and do something concrete and meaningful that actually moves society forward in accepting and valuing the wide variety of human personalities instead of fighting against a problem they themselves inflamed by embracing the rigid and sexist concept of gender transition as the only possible solution.

They can present as the opposite sex if they want to and can be supported to do this...

Can I ask what you mean by "present as the opposite sex"?

Genuine question.

It’s interesting to see who is being asked to accommodate

There’s the other sex class and parts of society that can step in. Women have had two decades of abuse and being overridden.

You see the problem I have with this (and I absolutely believe you can't change sex) is that this is a hammer to crack a nut. Can you see the list of resources being banned? These include at least two that I feel have no reason to be banned.

“Supporting Intersex Students: A Resource for Students, Families, and Educators” (October 2021);
(H) “Confronting Anti-LGBTQI+ Harassment in Schools: A Resource for Students and Families” (June 2021);

Where is the thought and the support for people who want to expresss themselves outside their sex sterotypes? Something that is common in the LGB community . Trans presenting children should be supported. They can present as the opposite sex if they want to and can be supported to do this at the same time as making it clear that they can't actually change sex. It can be treated as period of experimentation for young people. This is something adults can help them within kindness. For most children it will be a transitory period of experimentation and is fine, some of them may turn out to be gay or bi or just straight but wanting to experiment a bit. What is the probelm with any of that? None that I can see but it is up to the adults to guide them kindly with the facts

I can't see that this is what will happen with this legislation.

Conflating sex and gender expression is an issue for women's rights and I have no problem with strengthening the definitions but I am worried this will just lead to more extreme categorisation of gender sterotypes, leading to the 'women are like this and men are like this and nothing else is acceptable' type argument

No it isn't hard, you are right, but my point still stands, from my experience nobody cares about womens&childrens rights. Also I can't see that you have a point to be honest.

It is in response to your posts which are repetitive.

Fortunately you are not the thread police or any sort of arbiter of what has value.

TG

@EasternStandard What has your post got to do with anything I have said? You are continuing to post the same repetitive statements and obtuse questions, it adds nothing of value.

Take your blinkers off.

Women have been asking for privacy, dignity and safety for years

Those who use tactics to undermine were part of the problem.

The problem is everything is so polarised in America. Trump opposing the transgender agenda only makes Democrat voters support it more strongly.

Take your blinkers off, I’ve been actively involved in this area for years.