I think the spell is finally broken...

I think you are projecting your own upset and childishness, considering you seem obsessed with these threads and posting inane nonsense that contributes absolutely nothing. Calm down dear and have some discussions in the real world which actually matter.

I think you are projecting your own upset and childishness, considering you seem obsessed with these threads and posting inane nonsense that contributes absolutely nothing. Calm down dear and have some discussions in the real world which actually matter.

I think you are projecting your own upset and childishness, considering you seem obsessed with these threads and posting inane nonsense that contributes absolutely nothing. Calm down dear and have some discussions in the real world which actually matter.

@Heggettypeg You are preaching to the converted.

Yawn. Enjoy your hateful echo chamber under the guise of women’s rights.

This is the third time you've said something like "enjoy your little echo chamber". It comes across like someone performatively gathering their things and storming out and getting upset that everyone else is just ignoring them or saying "OK, whatever" and keeps pointing out that they are leaving in the hope of getting the reaction they want.

But they're not, not to the far right Christian lot who are currently partying. As far as they see it, giving young people who ID as trans, drug or surgical therapies is EXACTLY in the same basket as recognising the human rights and equality of gay, lesbian and bisexual people, or not being a racist dick, or not keeping women chained up in the 1950's.

I see very little to celebrate here. A massively misogynist and plutocratic group of cronies has taken power in the most powerful country on earth and this doesn't mean good things for women and girls, any more than it means good things for Black or Brown people, or gays and lesbians, or people who id as trans. I absolutely stand against the sorts of abuses we've seen in the name of 'enabling' kids who ID as trans, or grown men who want to inveigle themselves into women's spaces - but Trump's ascendency has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I don't understand how this is being seen as a victory. Sure, it is - if this is the one and only issue you care about. In a country where it's almost impossible to get an abortion before 6 weeks, I suspect many feminist women in the States will see it as a fairly hollow one.

I’m not reading that wall of text, I have a job and a life to live today - not to be spent arguing with a bunch of pseudo feminist Trump supporters who are regurgitating the same condescending phrases, just because I dared speak about empathy for those who have ‘transitioned’ under gender ideology. It’s not about ‘be kind’, it’s just basic humanity.

Those who do not have the cognitive capabilities to understand that someone is capable of concern for those people whilst also holding the belief that gender ideology is toxic, are pointless to engage with. The amount of vitriol and aggression in this thread is shameful, enjoy your little echo chamber - I am glad this is not reflective of life in the UK.

You see the problem I have with this (and I absolutely believe you can't change sex) is that this is a hammer to crack a nut. Can you see the list of resources being banned? These include at least two that I feel have no reason to be banned.

“Supporting Intersex Students: A Resource for Students, Families, and Educators” (October 2021);
(H) “Confronting Anti-LGBTQI+ Harassment in Schools: A Resource for Students and Families” (June 2021);

Where is the thought and the support for people who want to expresss themselves outside their sex sterotypes? Something that is common in the LGB community . Trans presenting children should be supported. They can present as the opposite sex if they want to and can be supported to do this at the same time as making it clear that they can't actually change sex. It can be treated as period of experimentation for young people. This is something adults can help them within kindness. For most children it will be a transitory period of experimentation and is fine, some of them may turn out to be gay or bi or just straight but wanting to experiment a bit. What is the probelm with any of that? None that I can see but it is up to the adults to guide them kindly with the facts

I can't see that this is what will happen with this legislation.

Conflating sex and gender expression is an issue for women's rights and I have no problem with strengthening the definitions but I am worried this will just lead to more extreme categorisation of gender sterotypes, leading to the 'women are like this and men are like this and nothing else is acceptable' type argument

Maybe eventually we wouldn't even need some of those. Who knows? The point is that if we as a society decide we no longer need some of those things to be single sex, it's because single sex versions exist but have been unused for decades because everyone actively prefers the mixed version. It's not because activists have tried to force social change by taking them away when they were still wanted and needed and when data clearly shows there are significant differences in risks and outcomes aligned to sex.

Will that happen? Very unlikely if only because it means some pretty large world religions have changed some major tenets. But I can be open minded to things changing in the future without compromising the case for single sex provisions today. On the contrary, laying out what would have to have changed to make single sex provisions no longer necessary really highlights that we are no where near a world where that is the case.

So why, when neutral 3rd spaces are proposed as a solution, do the TRAs react with such anger and talk of “othering”?

Because the whole point, for the vast majority of men in the GI movement who are motivated by extreme misogyny (which even Starmer is coming close to acknowledging) or fetishism, is breaking down women's boundaries and getting to film themselves in women's toilets, with a foot up on the basin to expose their bulge and sometimes even their naked genitalia. Some of them 'flash' women in a way that could be excused as an accident if the police were involved. We all know that flashing is frequently just an indicator of more worse sexual offending. The whole point of men in women's toilets is that it's seen as one over on women. They won't use third spaces because anyone can use third spaces and that's not what they want: they want to transgress for kicks.

Decent men observe boundaries. Any man in a women's toilet, unless he's a cleaner with good reason to be there, has made it plain what kind of man he is — a man who has no respect for women's boundaries.

Well you can be as unconvinced as you like. I think you haven't understood my point which is that both the EO and the trans movement traffic in concepts of biological essentialism that are ultimately not feminist.

Now wouldn't that be a thing. Banned from cross sex provisions, the trans and trans ally community regroup and start creating a grass roots whole new cultural phenomenon of agender spaces with two teeny single sex cubicles and a great big mixed sex palace as a Fuck You to the conservative right. New fashions, music genres and art arise out of it. Shocking at first, then edgy, then trendy, then beloved.

In twenty years time the dominant culture is agender and the trad sex roles and heteronormativity that Trump's supporters hoped to re-establish have all long gone. Cultural historians highlight the irony that by preventing gender non conforming people from simply appropriating the existing opposite sex provisions and legal rights, Trump actually triggered a whole new gender nonconforming energy and creativity that burst into sonething brand new.

You also have to remember that many Americans see the state as being much more important in terms of the law, and will think the state is the proper level for that kind of thing. Much like many people in Europe would think this is a matter for national rather than pan-European decision making.

There are a lot of Americans who see states rights as fundamental.

They aren't stopping any other women from pursuing whatever kinds of work or political activism they want, notarethey saying they should.

Most women who think abortion is a problem think that because they believe that a human life becomes a person before birth - and that killing a person is morally very problematic. Which is a perfectly logical conclusion, since society at large does not normally condone the deliberate killing of persons. That's not hypocrisy.

This idea that abortion is the only issue that counts in women's issues is a viewpoint of certain people on the left, it's by no means universally believed. That doesn't mean they hate women, any more than not believing in euthanasia means people hate the elderly.

But they're not, not to the far right Christian lot who are currently partying. As far as they see it, giving young people who ID as trans, drug or surgical therapies is EXACTLY in the same basket as recognising the human rights and equality of gay, lesbian and bisexual people, or not being a racist dick, or not keeping women chained up in the 1950's.

I see very little to celebrate here. A massively misogynist and plutocratic group of cronies has taken power in the most powerful country on earth and this doesn't mean good things for women and girls, any more than it means good things for Black or Brown people, or gays and lesbians, or people who id as trans. I absolutely stand against the sorts of abuses we've seen in the name of 'enabling' kids who ID as trans, or grown men who want to inveigle themselves into women's spaces - but Trump's ascendency has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I don't understand how this is being seen as a victory. Sure, it is - if this is the one and only issue you care about. In a country where it's almost impossible to get an abortion before 6 weeks, I suspect many feminist women in the States will see it as a fairly hollow one.

No I wouldn’t wish women would just shut up but I wouldn’t be too quick to congratulate this legislation, like some people are on here. Donald couldn’t give a toss about women’s rights.

They are entirely different issues.

@MakeYourOwnMusicStartYourOwnDance - please describe how i am right wing based on my single belief that TWare men

I have posted several times, over the years, about how i am constantly and reliably placed firmly in the "left of Marx and Engles" communist (non authoritarian) quadrant on every political test i do. (that and the fact that i have been on more anti-facist/anti-right marches in the last 6 months than in the 6 years before)

thanks in advance.