German right wing extremist changes gender ‘to be transferred to female prison’

That's a good point; as others already answered, it means "shelters", and they impose the word "shelter" on women's prisons. So they do realize that separate prisons are there for a reason, and probably the idea is that all women-only places are shelters of a sort, regarding privacy and protection. So it is even less understandable why they would allow "carefully selected" (not) males to cross this boundary.

Also they put the emphasis on the word "right-wing" as being "the only people who abuse the law" instead of the word that matters: "man".

In the nitter post mentioned above, one can see that other users linked some articles for FFF which report on other tw in women's prisons attacking other inmates.

However, some media, including the TAZ (leftie newspaper) also added that the ministry of justice can prohibit tw in women's prisons when it is "obvious" that the declaration is meant in a bad spirit.

On another note, thanks to the FFF comments I noticed that there is a new blog by Rona Duwe (Let Women Speak-activist) specifically for the upcoming national election in Germany. For any MN in Germany or interested in the subject:

https://was-ist-eine-frau.de/

("What is a woman?")
She checks all of the election campaigns against GC standards and has questionnaires for candidates, or which voters can use as a checklist if they wish.

oh, that video explains why the CSU didn't call on the federal constitutional court after self-ID after all... But they voted against the law. Does not look very decisive.

Curiouser and curiouser. Apparently Marla-Svenja has just filed a suit for misgendering, NOT against either queer.de or the mainstream press, but against the right-wing NIUS website that last year lost a previous court case for calling a well known transactivist a "man". Putting the courts on the spot to decide without "brave and stunning" in the equation on either side. Terven Twitter compares it to 4D chess.

https://x.com/yuppieooo/status/1882006945009406392

Well that Wikipedia post was interestingly written. Thanks for posting.

No pronouns used for the subject at all, IIRC. (Incidental details give subtle clues, however: "rapist", "sperm samples" … "raped" … ) At least a few sex-based pronouns were allocated to 'the subject's' victims, although even they were mostly described in terms like 'the victim', 'the corpse', 'the body'.

You mean having two linked entries? Interesting idea. The way Wikipedia seems to handle it though is one entry, all pronouns rewritten after the fact. Here's the Wiki page for Germanys perhaps most famous serial murderer:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beate_Schmidt

Hello!

Naive beginner here. Interesting stuff, especially Wikipedia. Are there rules on Wikipedia that allow or explicitly forbid disambiguation for, say, Marla-Svenja Liebich (Female) and Sven Liebich (Male) cross-referencing the fact they're the same physical human? Might be useful?

Well, the idea that you can be born in the wrong body is fundamentally conservative, and from what I can tell, the Bavarian premier says at the end ‘but anyway, we have bigger problems’. This is kind of where the debate was in the UK back in 2018. Hope the Germans finally wise up! No, you don’t need to ‘help’ creepy fetishists who mock women, push boundaries and worse!

It was part of the traffic light coalition agreement so yeah that figures. There's also some pretty nasty queer lobbyists among social democrats, among them one Alfonso Pantisano, currently "Queerbeauftragter" for the Berlin senate, who infamously called radfem journalists from Emma magazine "bitches [sic] who defecate on monuments." But there's also many more moderate voices than in the Green Party - eg Leni Breymeier, a long-time campaigner for the Nordic model, who was originally slotted to lead the traffic light negotiations on gender but sadly got sidelined by the TQ mafia.

But overall, yes, we're fucked. Just opened Twitter tonight and there's the Bavarian premier on video waffling on about "born in the wrong body".... 🤬

x.com/ronalyze/status/1881311552730460271

That’s horrific, I did not know this. But as far as I can tell from the election manifesto, the SPD also wants to add GI to the constitution.

How many instances have there been of women changing gender and demanding to be transferred to a men's prison?

@holeinamole,
a renewed grand coalition wouldn't even be that bad - the Social Democrats aren't nearly as captured on this as the Greens are, even if they've let their internal queer lobby lead the way on this. I was thinking primarily of a potential black-grern coalition which a lot of big players want. There's several on the state level right now, and they're disastrous on this. Both the Schleswig Hokstein and Northrhine Westphalia CDU premiers gave cone out in favour of adding gender identity to the constitution as a protected characteristic. NRW also has an abysmal record on putting men in women's jails (as does Saxony, with a black-red-green coalition and a green minister in charge of prisons.)

Are you saying there will be a CDU/SPD coalition and not repealing this crazy law will be part of the coalition negotiation demands of the SPD? Women are truly fucked in Germany, aren’t they? Right wing government and gender self-ID.

The CDU does talk about repeal and going back to requiring medical opinions. Their criticism is mostly directed at the treatment of children - specifically the fact there's no minimum age at all, also the 14y threshold for teens to make their own decision. In contrast, there's near silence on single sex spaces, especially when it concerns employee rights. But that's all moot really - they're going to roll over in seconds when it comes to trading this off against something more central to rhe men in the party, such as the idiotic debt brake provision that's even criticized by the Economist.

This sums up the problem with self-ID and, one could argue, also with the GRA as it currently operates:

You don't understand what abuse means. The #selbstbestimmungsrecht cannot be abused. Abuse of all other German laws, abuse of women's rights and abuse of society is the meaning of this law."

The German self-ID law is one of the most extreme ones there is. I’d be interested to know whether the CDU has said they will repeal or alter the law if they win the election. The SPD has promised more protections for queer people in their manifesto.

How can WE tell the difference between a crossdresser and a TW? One for the TRAs who patrol these boards to answer, methinks.

My German husband and I are totally supportive of Marla Svenja. Sadly though we will vote green!

A classic design. Looking forward to seeing it on the opposite side of the barriers at the next Let Women Speak event.

Found her online shop - this is her delightfully traditional design in support of our male sisters:

https://nitter.poast.org/FFFLeipzig/status/1879456886724104291

"Lol. Jetzt hat es mal jemand missbraucht, der euch nicht passt. Wenn Fetischisten und queere Realitätsverweigerer es missbrauchen, seid ihr leise, ihr Heuchler.
Lol. Now someone has abused it who doesn't suit you. When fetishists and queer reality deniers abuse it, you are quiet, you hypocrites."

"Warum sprecht ihr dieser Frau ihre Identität ab? Seid ihr transphob?
Why do you deny this woman her identity? Are you transphobic?"

"niemand kann das gesetz MISSBRAUCHEN. es ist der vorgesehene prozess, dass ein mann (JEDER) sagt, dass er eine frau sei - das wars.
nur weil dieser euch nicht passt ändert es nichts daran, dass das sbgg IM GRUNDSATZ mist ist. KEIN mann ist eine frau.
No one can ABUSE the law. It's the intended process for a man (EVERYONE) to say he's a woman – that's it. just because it doesn't suit you doesn't change the fact that the sbgg is basically crap. NO man is a woman."

"Ihr versteht nicht was Missbrauch heißt. Das #selbstbestimmungsrecht kann nicht missbraucht werden. Missbrauch alle anderen deutschen Gesetze, Missbrauch von Frauenrechten und Missbrauch der Gesellschaft ist der Sinn dieses Gesetzes.
You don't understand what abuse means. The #selbstbestimmungsrecht cannot be abused. Abuse of all other German laws, abuse of women's rights and abuse of society is the meaning of this law."

And even though only people FFF follows can answer, there is A LOT of pushback.

Mm, but in another way ... it makes sense, right?

@GrumpyPanda : "with the discussion page emphasizing her lawyers will be quite capable of hunting down transgressing casual Wiki editors by their IP addresses."

WTF?

It is high time that one of these SBGG cases (Selbstbestimmungsgesetz = self id law) gets through to the Bundesverfassungsgericht (constitutional court). If they tried this stunt with any other identity (Jewish, Black, etc) they'd be shown the door quicker than they can spell TW.

The Bundesverfassungsgericht did criticise the old Transsexuals Act, but they didn't require this free for all. I doubt they will go along with what appears to be a general taking away of rights and freedoms of women with fascist methods (I never thought I'd write that about mainstream people in Germany who purport to be progressive. But they have no compunction to use the system to bully critics into submission).

It hasn't reached the mainstream (hospitals, schools and workplaces) yet in Germany, so they can argue it does not affect the mainstream, but as we know from experience in other countries, they won't stop here.

As someone has already pointed out on this thread, the law isn't being abused, it's being used.

It's a law which says anyone can choose their gender. No exceptions. No gatekeeping. Everyone can just make a choice.

That's my understanding of how a self-id law works, anyway.

How can they tell the difference between a cross dresser and someone gender fluid I wonder?

A very good question.

It'll be feelings and words, I expect.

"I'm a man who gets a sexual thrill from wearing women's underwear" - cross dresser, begone with you!

"Some days I feel like a man, some days I feel like a man, I'm gender-fluid" - welcome, you're under the trans umbrella.

And no-one would ever lie, obviously.

Yes.
This is one of those situations where it would be really really nice not to be proven right however.