Pronoun policing in hobby groups

I assumed the 'punching down' was in a more general societal sense, rather than specifically wanting women to suffer - by trying to opt out of female oppression it makes it worse for those of us who are still in it, not less because it makes it look like we're there because we want to be (why don't you just identify out then if you don't like it).

TBH I don't personally know any transmen, but I wasn't aware of them 'punching down' - they obviously reject their own woman-ness for their own reasons🙄 but are they particularly nasty towards women in general?
Genuine question, because it hasn't come to my attention before that they might be.

Women who identify as men want to punch down on women who just are existing and don't want to be discriminated against.

Thus the hierarchy becomes
Men
Transwomen
Transmen
Women

And certainly not more equal nor gender neutral / non discriminatory. It's just making the dynamics worse and somehow legitimising the punching down as being acceptable because 'some females do it too'.

It's bonkers.

That is exactly how I feel about it. I can sympathise with teen girls who are just struggling to find a way of opting out of all the shit that comes with being female, but I do find myself irritated by grown women doing this and the implication that I must somehow be willingly "girly" because I am not choosing to identify as NB.

There was an eye-opening thread some years ago about the number of hobbies and activities that have been disrupted through the efforts of various activists or people with a personal agenda. Ravelry is in there along with this:

I used to go to a yoga class where an older guy used to go. He liked to cross dress which isn't a problem in itself at all but his outfits became increasingly inappropriate for yoga.
The last straw was when I spent a session behind him wearing a black negligé, fishnet tights and no underpants.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4186758-arseholes-who-ve-ruined-groups-and-hobbies

More on big/little fingers:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232434698_Do_Women_Really_Excel_over_Men_in_Manual_Dexterity

This little, tiny, study suggests it's our dainty little tiny lady fingers:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2307635/

Girls on the whole have better fine motor skills*, but I'm not sure if that continues into adulthood.

*I've just had a quick look and the studies I've found are very small samples, but all support this assertion. Happy to hear others if anyone knows of larger ones!

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0176556

However, sewing is a very useful skill and I've made sure I taught my son how to sew.

I went to a quilting exhibition at a museum a few years ago and was impressed by one that was hand made by an injured soldier in a war before that, maybe Crimea or Boer. It was made out of the fabric they had to hand, so basically bits of uniform. The accompanying blurb said that it was common for injured men to be encouraged to do sewing like this. I don’t know whether that was from the perspective of avoiding the devil making work for idle hands, or whether there was a recognition even then that crafts could be therapeutic and help the mind heal while the body recovers.

I would be interested in knowing more about when fibre crafts became so stereotypically female to the point your manhood was questioned if you participated. I’m guessing that it happened after WW2 when modern gender stereotypes seemed to bake in to British society

I’m sure this is a major influence. Not surprising if girls don’t relish the prospect of growing up female these days. Too bad the trans world is an even more dangerous place.

You get it with men too - trans identification seems to be particularly high in certain interest groups that are very heavily male-dominated. Perhaps people whose interests are so gender-stereotypical that they rarely even interact with the opposite sex are particularly likely to come up with an imaginary version of what that sex is actually like, and thence to identify into it.

@MarieDeGournay
I might start a pussy hat in green, white and purple and wear it to the ballot box (national elections in Germany in February, and I don't know who to vote for).

remembering that classic line from a show - quite comfortable with my sexuality, just don’t want to be slapped around the head by someone else’s.

Well I'm "only" 20 but it shows how "old school" I am. When you said not all the ppl in the group are women, I automatically thought "oh good, there are some men doing it". My mind didn't go to non-binary or trans....

I remember the controversy around Diversknitty and purity spirals a few years ago.

Interesting observations.

I really enjoy knitting, embroidery, crochet and sewing. People pushing an agenda in crafting groups is very off putting.

I’m very selective with social media groups related to these hobbies.
I just leave groups when people start insisting on everyone complying with their gender identity beliefs and pulling up people on inoffensive language used.

it must be exhausting for people who hold certain gender beliefs to have it at the forefront of their life all the time. I know I’m exhausted hearing about it.

I know a few heterosexual men who embroider and crochet but do not have the inclination or time to be active on social media with their hobby.

I read WWII prisoners of war did embroider letters home.

Oooh there's a thought! That would put the pussycat amongst the pigeons - let's start the campaign now

X posted with you @knitnerd90

Bet no one will be sharing pussy hat knitting patterns this time around!

My hobby groups (see UN!) have dealt with similar issues by insisting that discussion be related to the work itself. It's not simply a gender issue: any other fibre people may remember the Ravelry meltdown over Trump patterns. I could think of half a dozen other kerfuffles.

In fibre there is a bit of a tendency to be "ooh, male knitter/crocheter!" and it is easier for them to get famous quickly.

The knitting sphere is well known for this kind of thing:

www.technologyreview.com/2020/03/06/905472/ravelry-ban-on-pro-trump-patterns-unraveled-the-online-knitting-world-censorship-free/amp/

I'm on a sewing group where it is explicity banned to start a post with "hey guys" because apparantly its discriminatory.

There's also another sewing group (with more than 100k members) where a couple of years ago, someone posted about adjusting a pattern for their trans relative (which I thought was a fair enough request) but someone else took offence and all hell broke loose. Then the people who requested that everything stick to just sewing conversations were told they were "phobic" and kicked out of the group. As this all happened late at night, there were no admins involved till the morning. The result is that literally three years later, this sewing company still has a reputation for being "dumpster fire" because they apparantly didnt step in early enough to stop wide ranging abuse.

Sewing groups are utterly mad.

'Woman' is assumed to be an oppressed group that is subjugated and treated as inferior - and who wants to be one of those. ( other than cross dressing men with a kink for submission)

My grandmother (and others of her generation) confronted with that sort of thing would have sighed ostentatiously, remarked 'tis pity about you' and moved on, leaving the young person feeling rather silly.

It is almost as if they find themselves drawn to stereotypical womanly/girly things but cannot cope with the fact.