Pronoun policing in hobby groups

Totally over the fawning in craft communities over "special" people with pink and sparkly femininity of the kind not practiced by any of those born into it.

However, i am guilty (very guilty) of the "hi guys" or more commonly "hey chaps" opener. One of my friends has had HR hassle after her TIM colleague objected to her doing it as he felt she wasn't respecting his femininity (the rest of the meeting except him were female in the old fashioned sense and none quibbled about the greeting). Friend saw red and responded by saying she wouldn't be lectured on what was an appropriate greeting for a group of women by someone who had been one for all of 6 months and had previously benefited from the social, educational and financial privileges of masculinity.

Not spoken to her for ages so not sure where things are up to.

As I work in the heavily captured NHS I think "hi all" is probably the way to go to avoid trouble as I can see me responding in similar way if challenged.

I never successfully learned how to sew, crochet, knit or quilt (I thank many older women in my life who tried to teach me).

For me, it’s that tabletop gaming has gone this way: the latest idea is for players to fill in forms listing their triggers before a game so that the games master (GM) can avoid these subjects when designing the plot for a quest. Also, the number of OTT ‘queer’ characters has increased. I just want to solve an eldritch puzzle that could potentially destroy humanity by releasing Cthulu or I want to fight some Orcs. I want an escape from politics, ideology and daily life - I don’t want those things following me into my escape.

And things are weird when even the Babylon Bee noticed what’s happening (could do without the hackneyed ‘nerd’ stereotypes in the video tho’ 🙄):

you're a charmer.

Fishermen have traditionally done needlework whether it was repairing nets or knitting ganseys (jumpers)

https://www.watchonista.com/articles/watch-industry/female-gaze-celebrating-women-watchmaking

'For International Women’s Day on March 8th, we wanted to do something to commemorate the ladies who help make watchmaking great. After all, women have played an important role in the industry for centuries (Marie Perregaux co-founded Girard-Perregaux in 1856, for example).
Women also make up a significant percentage of the unsung heroes of the production line. For instance, the régleuses (or “balance-spring fitters”) – the people responsible for fine-tuning a movement’s tiny hairspring – are (and have historically always been) almost entirely women.'

'In 2021, the <a class="break-all" href="https://www.fhs.swiss/eng/homepage.htmlwww.fhs.swiss/eng/homepage.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry reported that 32,536 men and 25,014 women worked in the watchmaking industry. Still, the sisters are underrepresented in many aspects of watchmaking. For example, the same study showed that of the executive class, 1,338 were men while only 278 were women'

Funnily enough, it seems the answer is 'yes'.

https://revolutionwatch.com/revolution-100-most-influential-women-in-watchmaking/

https://myjewelryrepair.com/2024/03/trailblazing-women-of-watch-world/

https://wristcheck.com/discover/culturecheck/horology-queens-women-that-made-watch-history

On a similar vein, are there many female watchmakers ?

But I am English, and a "guy" is a man. And so i will pushback (or be an arse about it as described above to make a point).

English doesn't work that way. As St. Dent reminds us, the final arbiter is usage, no matter how much we may dislike it.

If you want a language which has it's usage prescribed by law then France is thataway --->

If you're quick you can catch the tide.

My father was taught embroidery in a TB sanatorium as well and was proud of his satin stitch, not that he did much of it in later life. He did have a respect for any craft or art work.

There also used to be a thing about Scottish shepherds knitting when they were out with the flocks, but according to this it was a kind of proto-crochet akin to nalbinding.

fascinating, I must research some more.

https://loopholes.blog/2018/11/two-bootees/

I work in a girls' school and they all use 'guys'. I suppose it is neutral, but I dislike it because it seems to me to reinforce the male default setting.
I naughtily say 'girls' because that's what they are. Don't tell anyone, it's not an approved term.

And my (2nd ww army colonel) Dad was in traction for a slipped disc when I was a baby. He made a teddy for me which I still treasure.

https://www.dymocks.com.au/threads-of-life-by-clare-9781419747656
This is a lovely read. She covers tapestry as an opportunity for political expression for medieval women, and soldiers recovering from shell shock - all sorts of stories woven together.

I knew of loads of knitting/sewing men. I've heard of knitting groups in schools being really successful with boys. It's interesting because my grandfather's generation I think would've seen being unable to sew as a sign of immaturity rather than femininity.

Perhaps it's more that as sewing and knitting etc has become a 'nice to have' rather than 'necessary to have' skills that they're considered to be more female coded because as we know if a skill is something women do as a fairly normal thing, when a man does it it's automatically elevated. Thus women knitting etc is a dull, if frivolous craft pastime, whereas if men do it, it's important and possibly art.

that's something i've known about for years, and since it really has been the case for ever, then i can accept it from Irish people (even addressed to a group i'm in) because I'm not Irish I'm not about to fight about it, even though i don't love it.

But I am English, and a "guy" is a man. And so i will pushback (or be an arse about it as described above to make a point). I particularly don't like it when I'm out for lunch with my elderly mum (we are both grey haired) and the waiter says "hi guys". There is NOTHING wrong with "hello, would you like a menu?"

Indeed this essay says that plural 'lads' in that sense is gender- (or sex-) neutral, whereas the singular 'lad' is not only male only, but may also be a slang term for a penis.

www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2025/0106/1489239-ireland-greetings-language-unique-properties/

A lad got his lad out, the lads were horrified (because they were all women).

In my small town Ireland all-girls convent school our customary usage when addressing a general classroom group was 'lads!'.

I have a sneaking suspicion that were I to be foolish enough to address a large enough group of people with "Hi All", there would be some fucknugget who would upset that I didn't say "Hi All and fucknuggets".

I admit that if you aren't leading a cure for cancer, or haven't made countless peoples lives better then maybe - just maybe - all you have to offer the world is your pronouns.

Myself, I aspire to more.

Today I am mainly grumpy.

But. Whenever i complain about being in a group that is addressed as "hey guys" - especially when i am in a single sex group with other women - i get told "don't be such a killjoy, it is a totally sex/gender-neutral term" and that i must/should accept being referred to as a "guy". (I don't care but it does give some people pause for thought). My follow up is usually to say something like "oh i was out with a guy last week, shopping for bras, neither of us found one to fit that we liked" and then reveal that the guy i was shopping with is a woman, always has been a woman etc etc. Then i get odd looks, comments etc, and told I'm being provocative.

I bet they wouldn't say it if an MTF was present. It's generally only women who get called precious.

I'm confused. I have no truck with gender, it's just a load of stereotype shit.

But. Whenever i complain about being in a group that is addressed as "hey guys" - especially when i am in a single sex group with other women - i get told "don't be such a killjoy, it is a totally sex/gender-neutral term" and that i must/should accept being referred to as a "guy". (I don't care but it does give some people pause for thought). My follow up is usually to say something like "oh i was out with a guy last week, shopping for bras, neither of us found one to fit that we liked" and then reveal that the guy i was shopping with is a woman, always has been a woman etc etc. Then i get odd looks, comments etc, and told I'm being provocative.

eh?

ohhhh what a good idea - I found my Pussy hat from last time, the other day, and i really like the idea of a hat with cat ears, and wouldn't mind doing that again. I'm going to a few demos next month so if i get it done in time (the last one took a couple of hours) i can wear it to them also

(I also don't know who to vote for. Right now - i just want to nuke everything from orbit, it's the only way to be sure)

Probably missing the point by a country mile, but "Hey Guys" when addressing a mixed sex group is (to me) an Americanism. When I grew up in merrie olde Engerlande, it would have been only intended for groups of men.

Then we started seeing US TV - "Happy Days ?" certainly by "Friends" it was "Hey guys !" as a character walked into a mixed company gathering.

Because the beauty of language is that it adapts to the ages 😀, I now take "Hey Guys" to be a familiar greeting to all present irrespective of where peoples dangly bits are, or more importantly where they think they should be.

DMs life passion was dress making, cross stitch, knitting, crochet, embroidery, macrame, lace making. You name it, she'd make it. Boxes rammed full of Simplicity patterns, and me totally not understanding what the point of "knitradar" was. And a happy grandchild with a hand made Harry Potter scarf that no one else had.

It depends on the individual obviously, but I know a number of trans men/nb female people and they can be quite sneery about women. In this case, we're talking a bit older, 30s and up.
One person I know quite well through a hobby group and it's very obvious that she doesn't want to be a woman because she sees women as inferior.

In my experience it's these types of women who deliberately fuck up "women's" groups by insisting on being included and then bullying people who refer to sex or use sex based language.

It depends on the individual obviously, but I know a number of trans men/nb female people and they can be quite sneery about women. In this case, we're talking a bit older, 30s and up.
One person I know quite well through a hobby group and it's very obvious that she doesn't want to be a woman because she sees women as inferior.

Interesting. My grouchiness was partly based on observing the commitment to a misogynist world view of a young person known to me, also of the spiteful nihilism of those crickets children - sad to learn it's more widespread.

The ultimate Mean Girl power trip, grow whiskers, call yourself Dick.

or whatever

My Dad was in a TB sanatorium for over 2 years from age 18. I have a tablecloth and place mat he made.