Pronoun policing in hobby groups

Not by the members of staff themselves but by our employer. If I "misgendered" one of them there is just as good a chance that someone else would report me for it rather than the individuals themselves as that is unfortunately very much the culture in our sector.

I think Anna would get on well here

So all I can do in my own quiet way is not put my pronouns on the staff directory/my emails
abd even this small thing is quite a stand in our workplace where almost everyone puts the everywhere, generally to virtue signal. Melania Bloggs, my pronouns are her/she when that's quite obvious from the female first name. Barely anyone's entry has an ambiguous first name and they always match the gender of the Christian name.

So no nasty coercion at all, then? /Sarcasm off

Maybe an elf is also an MNetter ?

To be fair I was answering the poster who was asking if anyone that worked with trans men thought "they were particularly nasty to women in general". I didn't post to give my experiences of how my particular workplace would deal but to answer your question..

1. i don't know as I've never seen either of them use the loo
2. you'd be in trouble and facing disciplinary procedures most likely
3. and 4 and 5 they wouldn't need to demand pronouns because of my answer to number 2

you could chance your arm but our union wouldn't protect you as they are fully on board with it all. So you'd be on your own. Any of us that are GC whisper quietly in corners with only trusted colleagues where you know you won't be overheard, your words misrepresented and reported to professional standards. And I need to pay my mortgage. So all I can do in my own quiet way is not put my pronouns on the staff directory/my emails and refer to those members of staff very carefully by their name or "they", avoiding the s/he issue.

The third was "merely" a sex pest that all the women learned to shun. You could see the relief when he picked on someone new, 30 or so women all being like "I can relax for 15 minutes because he's trying it on with her". And he picked on the vulnerable women, the freshers (despite being in his forties).

I really, really hate that I used to know a couple of geek men that more or less match this description.

That's horrific, ouroboros.

I'd imagine its perfectly possible, perhaps even quite easy, for an abuser to game, groom, and gaslight a whole group like this.

I can think of three instances of this from my own life. Two of the groomers, 15 years and 200 miles apart, had CSA on their computers, one pled guilty and the other was convicted, and in both cases the subculture closed ranks to support these men. The third was "merely" a sex pest that all the women learned to shun. You could see the relief when he picked on someone new, 30 or so women all being like "I can relax for 15 minutes because he's trying it on with her". And he picked on the vulnerable women, the freshers (despite being in his forties). He never seemed to get very far because he was that odious. I look back at the lack of solidarity amongst the women in that subculture and I despair.

Fear of what you have described keeps me out of geek spaces and has done for two decades.

All of what you say makes sense, topofthetable.

Unfortunately, all this <waves hands vaguely> shit has prompted me to look at these things from the pov of abusers.

A group that attracts vulnerable people will always be attractive to an abuser. Many people are attracted to subcultures because they are damaged and acting out against dominant cultures and norms. They feel like outsiders and so are vulnerable to a group made up of soi-disant outsiders. Subcultures are going to be the perfect place for abusers to operate.

Most people find it hard to understand abusive and disordered mindsets, probably by definition.

One can't assess safeguarding using the mindset of most non-disordered people. One has to test it against the mindset of someone with nefarious intent who is looking for loopholes and lacunas and situations they can game.

Any group that sets itself up in opposition to or in tension with societal 'norms' is going to offer rich pickings for an abuser and/or predator. Any group that has the dynamic of 'queering' (literally subverting norms) is going to be irresistibly attractive to abusers and very vulnerable to abusive dynamics and power plays, because it rejects and thwarts norms and it's easy to conflate/confuse these with personal boundaries and instinctive protective responses. So you can do a bait and switch and while rejecting social norms and 'the system', concurrently call boundaries 'hang ups' and present any in group rejection as traitorous behaviour.

Then you have naturally common responses like in-group reinforcement and othering of the out-group and you have grooming set up. ('normies' etc).

I'd imagine its perfectly possible, perhaps even quite easy, for an abuser to game, groom, and gaslight a whole group like this.

Some really good points @topofthetable

Hmm, in that case I'll elaborate and if it warrants its own thread, I'll start one.

I do think "geeky" hobby groups can be especially rife with problems regarding consent and boundaries. The main issues are probably:

1. High numbers of neurodivergent participants who may have a different idea of what is or isn't socially acceptable. Many people in these circles, myself included, considered healthy boundary setting around sex, relationships, oversharing etc. to be arbitrary neurotypical rules that we were free to do away with within our own group.
2. As a closely related point to 1, high numbers of Q identities and again, the sense that these boundaries were oppressive and unnecessary. Given how much ND and Q overlap, I suspect there is a fairly strong element of "stick it to NT society" at play here.
3. Some hobbies are insular, closed groups of a dozen friends getting together at a weekend to participate in said hobby. This is especially true for niche hobbies like live-action, where a core group of "OGs" can persist for years or decades. The group is the only place to enjoy the niche hobby. The "OGs" are the gods of the group and essentially above reproach.
4. Old school / new school misogyny and attitudes towards women.

Let's say you got into this hobby as a young autistic woman - perhaps a student. You're newly independent and trying to navigate the challenges of adult life in a society that doesn't feel set up for you. You find this hobby. You hyperfixate. It's the most fun you've ever had and all the people are so nice to you. Many of the people in your hobby are older, late 20s or 30s or maybe even 40s. Wow! These guys are so cool. There's a man there who's about the same age as your dad and he's been roleplaying since before you were born. You get talking and a few months down the line, he offers to help you make a great costume for your character.

Your friends aren't too keen about him coming to your student flat, but it's 2025 not 1925. How can we advance as a society if we don't leave ALL forms of sexism at the door? Besides, this guy is your friend and he really wants to help you feel included. So he comes over, your friends are mad at you, and he shows you how to use the sewing machine. He really seems to understand your character. He says she's going to look great. You feel flattered. He says she's going to look hot. You brush it off as him just being excited about your character.

A few sessions later, his character makes a move on yours.

You feel uncomfortable and maybe a bit guilty for feeling that way because it's all in-character stuff isn't it? Not real life, even if the bum grope felt real. You do try to tell another friend in the group, but she doesn't want to hear it. She says he's a great person - he's a great LGBT ally and he got arrested at a Palestine rally last year. Poor guy just gets really into his roleplay, he's so passionate about it.

You think maybe you misunderstood him and feel guilty for spreading a bad reputation. You worry you might be kicked out of the group. Your identity now revolves around this hobby. You don't know what you'd do without it.

Besides, he said sorry. It won't happen again.

Whereas I was prepared to defend them from being abused on the street, but not to bodyguard them into the wrong sex bathroom.

Me tangent: I've never understood why a useful and appropriate act of allyship from men wouldn't be to bodyguard a TW chum/colleague into the appropriate Room of Requirement as a deterrent against whatever the apprehension is. [/merail]

Obviously, this is not a boundary that would have been accepted very much and would have led to wholesale ostracisation from my hobby if I'd set it.
I feel as though there's a conversation to be had about boundaries and consent

It feels like software updates, shrinkwrap etc. - (informed and full) consent is presumed by default. There's a sense of default entitlement that is taken to preclude any consideration of consultation, information about intended actions, far less asking for actual consent.

Great idea for a thread. Although it would probably fit on this one, too.

This is the thing though. I knew plenty of transwomen and non-binary people (pretty much all born female) in my roleplay circles. Many of them were nice. Many of them did have interests and personalities outside of their gender identities. Many of them were quite solid people you could rely on in a pinch.

But this was, of course, conditional on playing the game, and they did assume you were comfortable with everything being a "good ally" involved (because only bigots and TERFs aren't comfortable, and obviously topofthetable is normal around me, so she's not a bigot or TERF). Whereas I was prepared to defend them from being abused on the street, but not to bodyguard them into the wrong sex bathroom.

Obviously, this is not a boundary that would have been accepted very much and would have led to wholesale ostracisation from my hobby if I'd set it.

I feel as though there's a conversation to be had about boundaries and consent in insular, mostly-closed communities like live action, but perhaps that's a slightly different topic.

What toilets / changing rooms do they use?

If the transwoman uses the women's facilities, what would happen if a woman objected to that?

Do they have preferred pronouns?

Do they have demanded pronouns?

What would happen in a meeting if I referred to them by the biologically and grammatically pronouns?

I work with a trans man and a transwoman. Both are really nice and never make the slightest reference to gender politics. They are just who they are. While I may not agree with the politics of the greater movement they are nice people who are just getting on with their lives in the workplace.

That's only partly true. In Germany, "new Gender language" is promoted by the media and the Duden dictionary. It's not used by most of the public, outside of unis, certain political circles and now media. Clearly a prescriptive approach, trying to cloak itself as "public usage".

I think you've hit the nail on the head with 'professional'.

Anything done at home by women is unseen, private and undervalued.

I don't know why men putting up shelves etc at home isn't viewed in the same way though. Probably because its usually men doing it.

Thanks @Szygy. Since I posted I ruminated about why it has always been perfectly acceptable to be a male chef or tailor (ie a professional), but domestic sewing and cooking in certain sections of society in the 20th century were (and still are in some places) firmly women's work.

Dors anyone know of a good book on social history that explores this further as I’d be interested in knowing more.

This painting (by Thomas William Wood) depicts Private Thomas Walker, wounded at the Battle of Inkerman in the Crimean War, sewing a military patchwork quilt from pieces of uniform.

In the 20thc, the actor Ernest Thesiger was an expert needleman who sustained wounds to his hands in WW1 and subsequently set up the Disabled Soldiers’ Embroidery Industry to allow wounded and bedridden veterans to provide an income for themselves by doing needlework. His main skill was in petit point, but he worked all sorts of embroidery and even made tiny carpets for Queen Mary’s Doll’s House.

These days there’s the charity Fine Cell Work, which supports prisoners by training them to do needlework to a high (luxury) standard, which sell for £££.

The whole purity spiral thing just drives me completely mad (and as a Ravelry member I watched it happen with disbelief). Of course men and women can do crafts but some people just have to be special 🙄

The M&S of passengers ?

Anyway aren't they "customers" now ? Passenger is so oppressive.

It wasn't just any passenger who got "ladies and gentlemen" banned on the Tube, it was Aimee Challenor.

I often use "folks" as being appropriately gender neutral.

Except in the woo-woo that is gender politics, that is equivalent to eating babies and throwing the bones out of the window.

TRA type folk don't want gender neutral anything. They want their gender to be especially and specifically exalted.

Trying to include them in a gender neutral address is a hate crime.