Australian Family Court Allows Cross Sex Hormones for Teen

Why would a well meaning parent by harmful illegal drugs for their children off the internet?

I agree but we are where we are and sadly you can’t turn the clock back. PB and cross sex hormones can be bought on the Internet.

I would rather this 16 year old had a judge decide and them have all the medical support, including counselling than a well meaning parent buy them off the internet.

Do we allow children to have those things?

Do those things cause infertility, vaginal atrophy or osteoporosis? Or have other serious negative effects?

Could a 16-year-old go to court to get a judge to declare that they should have those things?

Are people saying we should let children have those things otherwise they might go to unregulated private clinics for them or travel overseas?

Are people saying that we should give these things to children or they'll kill themselves?

I agree so why do we allow anyone to have lip fillers, Botox, cosmetic surgery?

I don't agree that any children should be given puberty blockers because they want to be the opposite sex.

Gender dysphoria appears to be about being uncomfortable about regressive gender stereotypes. I don't believe medication is ever the right treatment for children who are uncomfortable about the expectations based on them because of their sex.

Back in the 70s when I was a teenager, the (feminist) answer to this was that girls could do anything that boys could do (apart from those things that require a male reproductive system). Why can't we go back to that sort of attitude instead of medicating girls who think they have to be boys in order to do those things?

No.

The Cass review recognises gender dysphoria and that PB may be right for a few.

Do you disagree agree with the Cass Review?

Burn victims and people with scars have damaged bodies. The surgery is to try to make their body as far as possible more like it was before the damage occurred.

This is completely different from someone with a physically healthy body having cosmetic surgery which inflicts damage on their body.

Do you believe that people can be literally born in the wrong body? This seems to me to be the only way one could rationalise harming a physically healthy body in this way.

@OldCrone How does cosmetic treatment with a huge list of negative physical effects help anyone's mental health?

I have already been very clear I do not support unnecessary cosmetic surgery and I consider doctors who repeatedly operate on people e.g Katie Price, Jocelyn Wildenstein etc. are potentially negligent.

There is cosmetic surgery that can help mental health e.g. burn victims, scars etc.

Mental heath is complicated and often incorrectly trivialised. It is not something that can be ascertained from an article about a case and I am not going to resort to second guessing.

I don’t disagree that the side effects of PB, cross sex hormones etc. are awful. There is however always a balance between physical and mental side effects. To make that judgement you need to have all the facts which neither of us have.

Your position is never, mine is for a very very few people it might be right. We are both entitled to our view.

And this is a good example of why I am against 'altruistic' surrogacy.

Too much potential for coercive behaviour of all kinds.

I would ethically be refusing to enable this 'pact', if I were a doctor for this reason.

The taliban ref was tasteless and not worth referring to, specifically.

The way trans activists behave, and the way Australia cow tows to them is horrendous. Australia in fact made it law (following TvG) that women don’t exist in their own right. After all if any man can call himself a woman legally, there’s no difference is there. Talk about a misogynistic and sexist society. I hope they Do get their own version of the Cass report, then some of this grot might be reversed.

I'm really struggling to understand how someone's mental health might be improved by having medical treatment which results in things like infertility, vaginal atrophy and osteoporosis. Surely going through the menopause as a teenager isn't going to help their mental health.

And if, like Keira Bell, Chloe Cole and an ever-growing list of detransitioners, they later decide this has all been a mistake, is their mental health likely to be better than if they had never had this treatment?

How does cosmetic treatment with a huge list of negative physical effects help anyone's mental health?

How do you think this treatment helps mental health?

JessaWoo · Yesterday 23:03

Um. Australia isn't occupied by the Taliban.

Well, quite.

Unfortunately, it's the Traniban who are enforcing their beliefs on the Australian public, particularly towards women and more so lesbians.

@Shortshriftandlethal a different poster misrepresented a general comment to imply I agreed with surgery at 16.

I don’t and never said I did. I would like it to be at least 21 or to turn the age 25 in Scottish Government’s sentencing guidelines in to the age you can consent.

I agree the hypocrisy around women needing a hysterectomy is breathtaking. I also agree we need clear rules around gender medicine.

16 is just too young........and anyone 'treating' such a young person with drugs, surgery or subtances which block natural development - in order to treat a mental health issue - is grossly irresponsible.

Doctors will absolutely not perform a hysterectomy on a woman under the age of 35 - unless for a very real medical issue Unless, it seems, they jump on the trans bandwagon, in which case different rules seem to apply. This double standard was one of the issues that Cass highlighted. That gender 'mdecine' is not being held to the same standards or being judged or assessed using the same rigorous procedures as other branches of medicine routinely are.

It is a sort of retrograde 'anti colonialist' thing - and certainly if he's from a certain strand on the political spectrum.

Also feels isolated, and lacking in culture but that’s a different discussion.

@Sasskitty That’s a matter of opinion. And rude. What type of culture? Arts and theatre? Royalty? High society and nobility? Fuck that shit. Apart from royalty. They’re our royals too. Very strange seeing Charles on our coins now. BTW, we like being an isolated country. Helps to keep diseases and pests out.

Sadly, the reality is you can’t go back and stop the original development of PB, cross sex hormones, surrogacy, womb transplants etc. How these medical development are then applied/used can be shocking and certainly not what was intended.

What you can do is put the right safeguards in place. I would far rather a multi-disciplinary team considered the whole person (child and adult) and ensured they were making a fully informed decision. Where appropriate, with a judge making the final decision.

The opposite is to force it underground and people get PB/cross sex hormones on the internet. With little to no medical supervision and a huge potential for getting it wrong.

One of the biggest failings in all of this is the lack of high quality data. Had proper longitudinal studies been done on PB/cross sex hormones Baroness Cass’ job would have been made much easier. Her report would have been even more compelling. Thankfully this data should now be being collected but it will take time.

You only have to look at the newish “miracle” weight loss injections. Developed for good reasons to help morbidly obese patients to reverse diabetes, liver issues etc. losing weight was just one of the benefits.

We now have adults (and I suspect children) who don’t need them finding ways to get round the rules to get prescriptions online. There are side effects some of which may be permanent. How do you control this?

I am pragmatic and whilst I would much rather children and vulnerable adults didn’t have the option of PB, cross sex hormones and potentially as adults surgery the reality is they do. My view it is how you manage access that is important.

Surrogacy is another one, an option in theory for altruistic purposes e.g. a family member carrying a child for a female relative born without a uterus. We can’t go back but OMG we need to get the legislation right.

@borntobequiet I agree that in general most people make informed decisions.

This includes people who go to turkey to get cosmetic surgery or bariatric surgery etc. and have consider the risks and decided it is right for them.

@OldCrone sorry, Mental health.

No it’s not. In general, it’s fairly straightforward for reasonably intelligent, well informed people to make decisions about medical treatment. I’ve made the decision to have a knee replaced, because I recognise that quite soon the benefits will outweigh the disadvantages. I have a good idea of the level of pain I will face, how it can be mitigated and roughly how long it will take to recover.
Similarly, my SIL has agreed to be treated for her cancer, as she knows the consequence of not being treated might fatally shorten her life. We are both adults and the situations and outcomes are well evidenced, familiar and easily comprehensible.
My great niece, in her teens, has opted to go on the contraceptive pill in order to regulate her periods. This was done after much careful thought and with a clear understanding of the benefits and risks, again which are well known.
In each of these and many other cases, deciding capability is relatively easy. However, the sorts of medications and procedures in gender medicine are experimental and unproven. Additionally, teenagers and young people suffering from the sorts of conditions and disabilities that might prompt them to want these treatments are often prevented by those conditions from developing a full understanding of the impact on their future lives.

You didn't answer my question @Harassedevictee

What do you think is the point of this treatment other than the cosmetic aspects? Is there any other point?

As you know I was making a statement in general terms and not about Ash.

If we step back and look at anyone receiving unnecessary medical treatment be it medicines or cosmetic surgery etc.

I don’t believe it is necessary for people to have Botox or fillers or veneers or face lifts or breast enlargements etc. purely for cosmetic reasons. It uses up valuable resources, that could be used to treat those who really need it, like Katie Piper. People die from cosmetic surgery.

Look at Katie Price, or Michael Jackson etc. what doctor is acting ethically in those cases? However, as adults they get to choose.

I respect the right for other people as adults to choose what is right for them even if I disagree. Which I do.

At 16 Ash is not quite old enough to make that decision. Which is why a judge, and I imagine a whole group of people, have been involved.

I would much rather have a judge looking at one person and making a decision than the Wild West we had previously with GIDS etc. Children much younger than Ash obtaining PB via online clinics etc.

@Shortshriftandlethal fair point.

The question is how do you determine if anyone of any age fully understands a situation they are facing and are capable of making an informed decision?