Nordic Model Now article on Grooming Gangs

No, but that is an interesting thread, so thank you.

I had a feeling it was in FWR so I used this search string

site:mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/

(which was why I didn't see your link in AIBU!).

Maybe I'm wrong about which social reformers it was (I can't recall any reason as to why it might have been deleted). It was an eye-opening thread about some of the contemporary debates at the time and how it crossed over into advocating for retaining the abuse of children through rape (aka child prostitution for purposes of the then framing).

This is the baseline, not some imaginary world where the police actually care and try to prevent child rape as long as the rapists are white.

I'm so sorry for what happened to you

I don't think anyone believes that the police care about women and girls, regardless of the victims. I certainly don't.

This thread, Rethinking?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4899523-to-think-we-should-up-the-age-of-consent-to-18

(Generally, MN search function is crap, it's far better to use Google and keywords plus 'Mumsnet'.)

GenderlessVoid, I'm so very sorry.

A thread here from someone who works in data, commenting on the Home Office grooming report. I haven't cross checked all the points she raises, but the comment she makes at the end seems very pertinent:

'Data will tell any story you want.

When I am tasked with analysing data, I often ask “What do you want the data to say?”.

Letting data speak for itself, teasing out its hidden truths, allowing it to reveal its story, hardly ever happens - especially in the public sector. '

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1874758304062492953.html

focus on how the police have overlooked child rape for at least decades, probably centuries?

And the legislature. Somewhere on FWR is a fascinating thread about the age of consent and the parliamentary debates in which MPs (maybe member of HoL?) argued against it being raised because it would prevent them from taking their sons to have their first experience with a (child) prostitute. There are various interesting posts about Booth, possibly Rowntree and others.

PS: after a quick search, I can't find it. This is a basic overview of some of the issues that touches on matters such as the adultification of some girls, typically those of particular social classes etc.

https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-legacy-of-1885-girls-and-the-age-of-sexual-consent

I agree with those who say that the racial and religious aspects are an important part of why the police ignored the rape gangs. We shouldn't overlook that.

But please, can we also focus on how the police have overlooked child rape for at least decades, probably centuries? The police are not, and AFAIK, have never been there to protect most girls or women. I know quite a few women who were trafficked as children decades ago and the police did not care, even a little, Sometimes they were involved, either in the actual rapes, the trafficking, or covering it up.

I was three when a policeman walked in on my rape by several teens Most of them were white, FWIW. He yelled at all of us. He called me a whore/slut and threatened to lock me up if I didn't stop, as if I had a choice. FFS. He treated me like a piece of garbage who was ruined bc of what the boys did to me. That was where I got the idea that I was a bad person who was forever ruined by my abuse. (My abusers often reminded me and also that the police would throw me in jail if they found out.) Before that, it was just some awful, terrifying experience that kept happening. Others I know had similar experiences with the police either not caring or actually participating in the rapes.

This is the baseline, not some imaginary world where the police actually care and try to prevent child rape as long as the rapists are white. Can we talk about that as well as how the fear of being seen as a racist made it all even worse? I agree that the fear of being seen as racist is important but so is the police not caring about girls being raped or trafficked, esp if they're poor, minority, abused, disabled, or some other "less than".

Maggie Oliver is brilliant on this and the abuse is still ongoing which is horrifying. Worth watching her interview.

Arabella - thank you for those links (it cleared up the "prosecuted" vs "convicted" question for me in addition to being helpful in other ways. For me, Table 2 would have been useful with a "not guilty" column and some other data as the cold is making me reluctant to do even basic mental arithmetic).

I was struck by this observation in the study which, as so frequently argued on FWR, calls for the collection of accurate data:

Child abuse does not have any geographic, cultural or religious boundaries and more research is required on GLCSE across the world on national responses, and policy and practice. Jones and Florek (2015) confirm that countries may see GLCSE differently, but similar offences have triggered law and policy in the European Union, Australia and the USA. Authoritative data on the age, gender, occupation, ethnicity and religion of offenders needs to be collected for the UK from court records as a matter of urgency. The controversy related to GLCSE can be resolved through the availability of authoritative data on the identity of the offenders

As a general point (IPSO seems to have been misrepresented in their findings) I've a strong suspicion that IPSO, amongst other comparable bodies, should consider employing the services of people who are used to writing systematic reviews and meta-analyses when it comes to adjudicating matters such as this. At the very least, it would alert them to the need to be aware of checklists for assessing the quality of the studies and the relative weight of evidence and state that they've followed this in their assessments.

I'm afraid I cynically think the problem is far bigger than we know. It's the only possible explanation for why politicians and institutions carry on failing children. It's not rocket science. Make it more costly for any professional to stay silent than speak up and apply existing safeguarding guidance and the law.

Same reason for why rape - a crime - is effectively legal. Because he majority want it to be.

I know in various scandals years later a few people lost their jobs but it needs to be everyone all the way down who didn't speak up / do what was right / follow the law. And those who did speak up need to be put in charge to prevent it happening again and encourage a culture of speaking up for victims. But this never happens.

Those who didn't safeguard those girls and do their jobs properly need to lose their jobs. It needs to happen quickly. At the moment it's those trying to safeguard effectively who gets pushed out of their jobs.

Yes.

Those who didn't safeguard those girls and do their jobs properly need to lose their jobs. It needs to happen quickly. At the moment it's those trying to safeguard effectively who gets pushed out of their jobs.

Starmer could make this happen if he wanted to. The safeguarding frameworks are there, they're just not enforced.

@PermanentTemporary I really agree with you about the class aspect. And the role of the social workers, and the theories that dominated social work training and practice at the time.
"So they saw girls who seemed to be 'making choices' which third wave 'feminism' promotes."
Social work was up to its eyeballs in "sex positive" "feminism" at the time. It probably still is, actually. Has there been any kind of accounting within the profession, does anyone know, in response to the scandals and the role social workers played in turning a blind eye?

https://thecritic.co.uk/ipsos-grooming-gangs-mix-up/

'By comparing the number of prosecutions to the overall population, this study found that 1 in every 2,200 Muslim men over 16 in England and Wales had been prosecuted for group-localised child sex exploitation from 1997 to 2017.
When it came to Pakistanis it was 1 in 1,700. In Rochdale, 1 in 280 Muslim males over 16 were prosecuted. In Telford, it was 1 in 126. In Rotherham, it was 1 in 73.'

The study:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338984495_Group_Localised_Child_Sexual_Exploitation_Offenders_Who_and_Why

Here is Julie Bindel's 2007 article:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/mothers-of-prevention-v6wn7b8vrjc

In this article:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/three-girls-drama-child-sexual-exploitation-rochdale-blackpool-pimping-a7739006.html
she says,
"... despite the quality of material I had amassed, it took me until 2007 to get my first piece published because some editors feared an accusation of racism."
(Bindel published three or four articles a month in the Guardian in 2007 so I suppose we could make a good guess which editors those were).

This exactly echoes my thoughts. Great article.

Maggie Oliver wants another enquiry so I'm with her.

The stats involved are terrifying. In Rotherham, 1 in 73 men of Pakistani origin have been convicted.

Convicted of what?

Excellent article from Matthew Syed.

'We must be more rational; isn’t that the most glorious tradition of the post-Enlightenment epoch? And the hallmark of rationality, let me suggest, is the capacity to hold a number of ideas in our minds. Was Robinson right to call out child rape gangs? Yes. Does he deserve credit for it? Also yes. But should he be in prison for serial criminality? Damn right he should. Similarly, let us assert emphatically that those in the police and local government who looked the other way as young girls were scarred for life should be in prison too — one reason we need a fearless and cost-effective national inquiry.'

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nc05syed-plvfdcxnz

https://archive.ph/TdgQL

I agree with those saying we don't need an enquiry. What we need is for the police and social workers/any relevant professionals to start doing their job. Investigation and prosecute anyone accused of child abuse/rape without fear or favour.

Take children's accusations seriously and start disrupting these gangs.

I would suggest a specific department in each police force to deal with it, but that would just create a specific group for abusers to infiltrate and subvert.

I know exactly how hard this will be because children caught up in this kind of abuse will often be the most unlikeable teenagers you will meet. That's not their fault obviously, but it makes it much easier for the rapists to get away with.

The police need some kind of incentive to make dealing with this stuff properly more appealing than ignoring it.

I find it particularly irksome when left wing leaning women who in everything else are citing "the patriarchy" as the reason for female oppression. This is an in your face example of patriarchal oppression.

I cannot believe the amount of people wanting to ignore the religious/racial aspect of these rape gangs.

Just like NAMALT, NAMMALT. But if you understand how the Pakistani muslim communities live in many of the towns affected by rape gangs, you’ll understand how close knit they are and how there is an omertà operating that stops anyone speaking out about criminality in the community. Throw sharia into the mix, and there’s the foundations for these men to operate openly for years without anyone, wives, families etc flagging up the abuse to the authorities because it’s just poor, white girls so who cares and the Koran allows it.

The stats involved are terrifying. In Rotherham, 1 in 73 men of Pakistani origin have been convicted. The authorities are ignoring this, just like they ignore the stats of the high percentage of trans identified men in prison for sexual crimes.

That Telegraph piece made for bleak reading. This has going on for years, and seems to be continuing unabated even now. But this:

The protection of offenders may have gone further still. In at least one case, when a victim found the courage to go to the police, their abuser appears to have been tipped off. While still in the police station, one child received a text from her abuser informing her that he had her 11-year-old sister, and that it was now “your choice…”. The child chose not to go through with the complaint.

What can you say about that? The police themselves have to take a big part of the blame obviously. And I'm very disappointed in Jess Phillips; isn't this supposed to be her area of expertise and responsibility?