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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Old Vic toilets

106 replies

adulthumanfemalemum · 31/12/2024 11:18

Went to the Old Vic yesterday. Christmas Carol, amazing show. Fucking annoying toilet labelling.
'12 cubicles", 'Urinals, 1 cubicle'

I saw an elderly woman emerge from the one labelled urinals looking a bit confused and worried and went into the other one, obviously had not understood that was the mens. Also the cubicles in the ladies (or the 12 cubicles) were not floor to ceiling so I felt quite uncomfortable that there was actually a man standing in there while I was in the toilet. He appeared to be holding his wife's coat, rather than any nefarious reason but I still would have felt happier if he was outside.

The Old Vic sent me a survey to complete so I took the opportunity to complain about their toilet labelling. In case anyone else wants to do the same here's the link. https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/OVpostvisit?promo=36317

Post Visit Survey

Take this survey powered by surveymonkey.com. Create your own surveys for free.

https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/OVpostvisit?promo=36317

OP posts:
Manxexile · 11/01/2025 20:15

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/01/2025 11:49

@meloncotton I would describe the triple threat of your journey down into the toilets being a lone woman, in an isolated area, in an enclosed mix sex space. And the man’s reaction too. To be honest it sounds a bad place for any toilets. I would also describe the man’s reaction on how awkward it was for him too.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Ask if there is an alternative set of toilets because of the experience you had.

@meloncotton - and this too ^

Manxexile · 11/01/2025 20:14

meloncotton · 10/01/2025 20:24

I am writing to a venue after my experience of using mixed sex toilets. I am trying to explain why I felt nervous only realizing after I entered that they were mixed sex. It was just me and one man in there and the toilets were down a quiet corridor in a basement. The man was fine and actually looked awkward but how do I explain that I also felt nervous and on high alert as soon as I realized?

Just tell them how you felt about the experience and how uncomfortable and anxious it made you feel. Explain that it has made you reluctant to visit their venue again.

Point out that he didn't appear comfortable about the encounter either...

LittleBigHead · 11/01/2025 19:48

IME Stryker is a grifter. He wanted £1000 to give an academic talk for 40 minutes via Zoom.

Vinculum · 11/01/2025 17:03

@Keeptoiletssafe no, not in a related field in any way, but just fascinated/appalled to join the dots with all this stuff and see what’s behind it. A look at inclusive toilet expert and ‘public intellectual’ Susan Stryker’s long (very, very long) list of publications is…quite alarming, actually. Stryker is a very powerful figure to be pushing all this.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/01/2025 16:06

Vinculum · 11/01/2025 10:03

@Keeptoiletssafe was the architect you mention Joel Sanders? He seems to have a mission to impose his theories on museums and galleries worldwide and unfortunately they seem all too keen to go along with it. I see he teaches a class on 'inclusivity beyond code compliance'……🙄

Yes and Professor Susan Stryker www.susanstryker.net/about

Their names keep coming up when I look at toilet design and their influence is far reaching - even though they have not (certainly not by summer 24 - I haven’t checked recently) done any impact assessment on how their designs are affecting users. They had a concept for inclusive toilets and ran with it. It appears very lucrative too. What’s bizarre is that there’s no academic challenge to this - they are both Professors so you would have assumed some sort of academic rigour in their work. If you look them up you will see how difficult it would be for a student to challenge them (no one has in the lectures I have seen) and they go round the world promoting their ideas. They promote their designs as safe, without evidence, stating ‘restroom users can visually monitor one another, reducing the risk of violence’. There is so much I could say about that and so much evidence to the contrary. They also say their designs are good for people with disabilities. I can tell them exactly why they are not. But with them it’s all about concept.

Also their social justice angle they have taken presents their toilet designs as the endpoint of some sort American toilet rights evolution with all issues sorted - in a promotional video the impression is that toilets are now used by everyone in harmony and everyone lived happily ever after. It appears very noble until you focus on the substance, the practicalities and realities. Which is that the evidence shows their designs are unwanted by most, unhygienic and most importantly, unsafe. Bringing us back to The Old Vic toilets.

What’s upsetting is that their article was the reason full height cubicle doors and partitions were recommended to the uk government for people with long term health conditions. This from a government commissioned report that didn’t even consider heart disease, period problems, epilepsy, diabetes or asthma. The people with these long term health conditions are not best served by this design change from a common door gap design that has been proven to be life-saving.

@Vinculum are you in a related field? If you get to see either of them speak I have got a few questions for them! They haven’t answered my email.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/01/2025 11:49

@meloncotton I would describe the triple threat of your journey down into the toilets being a lone woman, in an isolated area, in an enclosed mix sex space. And the man’s reaction too. To be honest it sounds a bad place for any toilets. I would also describe the man’s reaction on how awkward it was for him too.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Ask if there is an alternative set of toilets because of the experience you had.

DuesToTheDirt · 11/01/2025 10:27

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/01/2025 01:21

some American toilet doors are minuscule and have side gaps which is relevant

US doors are hideous. The bottom of the door is often at practically the same level as the loo seat, and the top is below the top of my head (I'm taller than the average woman, but shorter than the average man). No privacy whatsoever.

So I can certainly see a reaction to that pushing things too far the other way.

I had noisy liquid diarrhoea on holiday last year, and had to use a squat toilet with partitions only up to about shoulder height. I was glad there was noone else in there, woman or man, or I would have felt pretty embarrassed.

Incidentally, in that country public toilets all have an attendant at the door, who takes a fee. I sometimes wonder if they ever get transwomen trying to use the women's toilets, and if so what happens.

Vinculum · 11/01/2025 10:03

@Keeptoiletssafe was the architect you mention Joel Sanders? He seems to have a mission to impose his theories on museums and galleries worldwide and unfortunately they seem all too keen to go along with it. I see he teaches a class on 'inclusivity beyond code compliance'……🙄

Joel Sanders - Yale Architecture

The Yale School of Architecture is dedicated to educating the next generation of leading architects and designers of the built environment.

https://www.architecture.yale.edu/faculty/323-joel-sanders

BrightLightFright · 11/01/2025 01:38

https://www.oswestry-tc.gov.uk/2024/04/all-cisterns-go-for-revamped-town-centre-loos/

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/local-hubs/oswestry/2023/04/21/council-agreed-350k-public-toilet-re-fit/

I hate these new toilets and I now avoid going to this town if I can.

I am glad that there is a 'changing places' toilet (more of these are needed). Due to my disability having a cubicle where both the sink and toilet are included is a good thing. In theory, I should be pleased with the updated design because of this. However, the lock mechanism on the door is a sensor. Of course there is no gap due to the doors opening out towards the carpark so they are fully enclosed. If anyone had a problem and couldn't pull the cord (or pulled it and had no response) you could be stuck in there for who knows how long with no-one knowing.

Even the idea of the sensor failing to open the door fills me with worry. It is a very claustrophobic space.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/01/2025 01:21

some American toilet doors are minuscule and have side gaps which is relevant

US doors are hideous. The bottom of the door is often at practically the same level as the loo seat, and the top is below the top of my head (I'm taller than the average woman, but shorter than the average man). No privacy whatsoever.

So I can certainly see a reaction to that pushing things too far the other way.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/01/2025 00:56

The quote about selfies in toilets was from a young female sales exec, from a big U.K. toilet manufacturer, in an article about what you need to consider when designing toilet blocks. Aesthetics is the biggest selling point in the article. They do do a very nice range of door and hinge colours.

If anyone is interested in how toilet design changed so much recently, I looked through all the government documents available online for the public toilet consultation that mentioned toilet door gaps in the last 2 years and traced it back to the source then researched their reasons:

The ‘evidence’ for recommendations to the U.K. government for private full height cubicles (which was from a commission to look at long term health conditions by a company called ARUP) was derived from an article written by two people involved in an American restroom design company. The company are called Stalled! and the original founders were a male architect and transwoman university lecturer in Gender and Women’s Studies. Their company champions toilet design as a social justice issue for inclusivity and they have a swish website.

The architect has several interesting talks on YouTube where he discusses his life’s work and ideas. (My note: some American toilet doors are minuscule and have side gaps which is relevant). Several decades ago the importance of the gaps in doors and partitions in male public toilets for the male gaze was in an article of a journal that the architect edited called ‘Stud’. The architect talks about how he was influenced by this and used sightlines and gaps as design features, becoming successful for incorporating and expanding this concept into different rooms in upmarket homes. More recently, when looking at needs for a new transgender market he said he went to the transgender lecturer and they decided that an inclusive restroom design for everyone would be completely private toilet cubicles leading into very open to all communal circulation areas. I can see from their background that it makes perfect sense to them that having no gaps is a good solution to inclusive design. And that in trying to make sure no one felt excluded in a venue they designed ‘communal washing stations’ outside the toilets and ‘communal grooming areas’ so everyone has to mix with each other.

In a question and answer session at Harvard university (last year on YouTube) the architect said these designs have not been assessed nor analysed to how they work in situ. They market their designs as good for all including disabled (ambulant) people and women as well which is completely at odds with all the research and experience I have. I believe they have not thought of why the gaps at the bottom of doors are there - safety sightlines and also as hygiene features, which is more obvious to anyone who has different experience of life eg. of being a medically vulnerable woman.

If you listen to them talk about their ‘inclusive’ designs, they don’t mention the realities of dealing with heavy periods with a communal sink, safety aspects of assaults inside private cubicles exacerbated by mixed sex spaces, medical emergencies (hypos, seizures, strokes, heart attacks, miscarriages, overdoses, being spiked, self-harm) inside a private cubicle, rescue times for other events eg fire/bomb evacuations. They don’t consider the practicalities of someone being seen if they’ve collapsed, to be rescued in time. Or of cleaning vomit/blood/poo/wee etc off floors and full height doors, or extra lighting and mechanical ventilation needed that could fail in these totally enclosed spaces or that who is behind the next door or your door. All and more of the real situations other women have written about. Add all these situations up and the conclusion can only be that their designs are best for healthy men with no hidden disabilities.

This is the source of where ‘inclusive restrooms’ design ideas are derived from and now have been influential for U.K. public toilets. I wouldn’t be surprised if they directly/indirectly influenced the theatre’s designs.

For all the talk of inclusivity this type of design is not safe for anyone at their most vulnerable. And worse, it actually increases the chance of specific criminal and tragic events occurring, disproportionately to women and children.

Everyone should be considered and needs balanced carefully. Safety must be the most important need.

meloncotton · 10/01/2025 20:24

I am writing to a venue after my experience of using mixed sex toilets. I am trying to explain why I felt nervous only realizing after I entered that they were mixed sex. It was just me and one man in there and the toilets were down a quiet corridor in a basement. The man was fine and actually looked awkward but how do I explain that I also felt nervous and on high alert as soon as I realized?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/01/2025 15:30

meloncotton · 10/01/2025 11:16

Unfortunately young women do take selfies in the loo, but specially women under 20

Yep after going to a few Christmas parties in fancy/trendy venues last year can confirm this is definitely a thing.

meloncotton · 10/01/2025 11:18

Someone needs to ask The Old Vic how the ‘urinals and 1 cubicle’ toilets are fit for purpose as mixed sex toilets.
I would like to see their response

meloncotton · 10/01/2025 11:16

Keeptoiletssafe · 10/01/2025 00:04

Manufacturers and designers have the self closing toilet door as a selling point to ‘high-end’ to customers as it looks smarter to have a streamlined appearance. Aesthetics are a big selling point as who doesn’t ’love a selfie in the toilets while we’re out with our friends’ (direct quote from a manufacturer’s website).

I suppose it stops seeing bare arses if the doors don’t self close. In new mixed sex toilets there have been retrospective signs fitted to ask men to close the door as many aren’t bothered or forget.

These self-closing, full-height cubicles are not good for queues, hygiene, emergency building evacuations, medical rescue times and preventing assaults…….

But apparently a great go-to destination for a group photo.

Unfortunately young women do take selfies in the loo, but specially women under 20

Iwishihadariver · 10/01/2025 08:23

Your posts are very helpful @keeptoiletssafe. I learn so much like this from the collective mumsnet expertise (not all of it is good or welcome, but mostly necessary).

I make a choice to avoid cultural and retail places where toilet facilities have been modernised inappropriately. They lose my custom and my money, and I can bear the loss where alternative options exist. I appreciate others may want/need to make different choices. But with your help, I am equipped to make my decisions and tell them why. Thanks💐

Datun · 10/01/2025 08:05

Keeptoiletssafe · 09/01/2025 11:09

It’s because the manufacturers are designing them as fully enclosed - there is a big surge towards privacy at any cost. In the case of school toilets it’s written into policy for secondary schools so that’s what manufacturers offer now.

To quote people ‘at the top’ who make these policies: ‘if it were up to me all toilets would be supervised’ (presumably to override the more problems they have created). To be fair the government did commission a private company to look at designs for people with long term health problems. However that company recommended full height cubicles based on inclusivity on what transactivists liked in trendy American nightclubs - rather than looking at what was safe and needed by people with the most common long term health conditions. I am not making this up - it’s all there it the report but the reason is hidden until you do a quick search. Even periods were only referenced at the back of the report in terms of transmen and their focus on having sanitary bins in the men’s. I think that if they were woman focused had looked at the long term conditions of (heavy) periods for example, they would look at sanitary bin design and placement. I find male designers centre the toilet in the cubicle so the sanitary bin rubs against women’s legs - which is what was designed in the single sex toilets too.

In terms of women’s safety, an argument I have read from influential designers is that they feel that mixed sexed enclosed toilets are safer for women because of the increased footfall - so men would be able to ‘look out’ for any trouble and help us women out. Guess what sex those designers were. Tell that reasoning to everyone that’s come to harm - it’s infuriating.

The design of toilets is only going to be as good as the people in charge of designing them.

Schools have wasted a lot of money having swanky new mixed sex private cubicles and then having so many problems with them. If the Old Vic really was honest, they wouldn’t have had them designed like this either if they had all that fundraised money again.

I'm feeling frustrated on your behalf, so God only knows how you feel with all this.

The constant reinvention of the wheel must be absolutely infuriating

These are bloody toilets, it shouldn't be that hard, should it.

Thank you for doing this.

Zita60 · 10/01/2025 07:34

Keeptoiletssafe · 10/01/2025 00:04

Manufacturers and designers have the self closing toilet door as a selling point to ‘high-end’ to customers as it looks smarter to have a streamlined appearance. Aesthetics are a big selling point as who doesn’t ’love a selfie in the toilets while we’re out with our friends’ (direct quote from a manufacturer’s website).

I suppose it stops seeing bare arses if the doors don’t self close. In new mixed sex toilets there have been retrospective signs fitted to ask men to close the door as many aren’t bothered or forget.

These self-closing, full-height cubicles are not good for queues, hygiene, emergency building evacuations, medical rescue times and preventing assaults…….

But apparently a great go-to destination for a group photo.

Ye gods, they seriously think women take selfies in toilets? Surely a man must have written that (or a transwoman, because they seem to like taking selfies in women’s toilets).

I was just thinking before I read your post that perhaps the justification was that it looks neater. But as well as the issue I mentioned, it must also be a problem for those with poor sight, who can more easily tell from a distance that a cubicle is empty if the door is open.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 10/01/2025 00:10

Aesthetics are a big selling point as who doesn’t ’love a selfie in the toilets while we’re out with our friends’

Er. Me. Or anyone I know.

Indeed there's only 1 demographic I can think of that does love a selfie in the loos ... and they're the ones who shouldn't be in there.

Keeptoiletssafe · 10/01/2025 00:04

Manufacturers and designers have the self closing toilet door as a selling point to ‘high-end’ to customers as it looks smarter to have a streamlined appearance. Aesthetics are a big selling point as who doesn’t ’love a selfie in the toilets while we’re out with our friends’ (direct quote from a manufacturer’s website).

I suppose it stops seeing bare arses if the doors don’t self close. In new mixed sex toilets there have been retrospective signs fitted to ask men to close the door as many aren’t bothered or forget.

These self-closing, full-height cubicles are not good for queues, hygiene, emergency building evacuations, medical rescue times and preventing assaults…….

But apparently a great go-to destination for a group photo.

Zita60 · 09/01/2025 21:00

socialdilemmawhattodo · 09/01/2025 16:41

they made that change fairly recently - perhaps just before COVID and there was no consultation with V&A members at all. No accountability to the people using those toilets. Glyndebourne just as bad.

Glyndebourne too??

I haven't been there for a few years, but I loved the fact that the symbol on the door to the Ladies had a figure in a long dress, rather than the short dress in the standard symbol for Ladies. 😀

Vinculum · 09/01/2025 19:10

I can report a bit of good news - the King's Gallery (which was still the Queen's Gallery - just - when I saw the Holbein exhibition there a few months ago) does have single sex toilets, with a proper sink area with mirrors.

NecessaryScene · 09/01/2025 18:43

I imagine one benefit for venues doing this is that their toilets probably get less use, reducing cleaning work. Many people will presumably avoid using them, and go elsewhere if they possibly can.

Having toilets that people avoid using is kind of ideal for a venue.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 09/01/2025 16:41

Bluebootsgreenboots · 09/01/2025 11:13

Interesting about the difference that self closing doors makes @Zita60
There's also the V and A members room where I was invited as a guest once - the dreaded mixed sex.
I asked at the desk where the ladies' toilets were - not at all easy to find (but of course a very interesting detour)

they made that change fairly recently - perhaps just before COVID and there was no consultation with V&A members at all. No accountability to the people using those toilets. Glyndebourne just as bad.

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 09/01/2025 13:15

I was in the V&A members room toilets at the same time as a male stranger. He was even more uncomfortable than I about it.

That's an interesting post about the design of toilets and the impact of self-closing doors.

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