Taliban: NGOs employing women will be banned & building should not have windows that women can be seen

There's something that weighs on my mind a lot regarding Afghanistan, Russia, and other current conflicts.

Germany changed after WW2 because Germany wanted to change.

Germany didn't change after WW1 because then it didn't want to change, and in fact wanted even more of the same.

It is this "wanting to change" which cannot be successfully imposed from outside.

Sure, outside agencies can help it along: there was a deliberate attempt at de-Nazification of postwar Germany by the Allies; and recent the Western presence in Afghanistan offered a certain amount of education for women and facilities for all (off the top of my head I can remember a big water-provision project).

But in the end, the interests which find their expression in the Taliban and their pals al-Qaeda have remained. So as soon as any obstacle holding them back is removed, they resurge.

The same is true in Russia. Even when Putin disappears (by old age or forcible removal), Russia will not suddenly change. Russians will not suddenly unlearn all that decades of tightly controlled media and education taught them about Russian history. Putin's imperial project is supported by extremist nationlists in Russia and will remain a threat to all the independent countries which were ever sucked into the Russian empire in whichever guise.

"Whether we put troops on the ground or just bomb Taliban assets from the air until they demonstrably improve women’s rights is a matter of strategy or tactics."

Will you be passing the trump test and putting yourself in the line of fire, then?

The mistake most people make is to assume the Taliban are really modern men playing at being medieval - sort or LARPing it up - and that they are aware what they are doing is somehow debilitating.

They aren't. They really do believe in the divine nature of what they are doing in exactly the same way our forebears believed they were saving womens souls by burning them at the stake. Yes, that system too was used to suppress women by a ruling elite playing on the superstitions of the ill educated.

I don't know what the answer is, but approaching it as if a smack around the chops will somehow "bring them out of it won't work".

If we could travel back in time and try to tell our ancestors that there is no such thing as witchcraft, it wouldn't stop the burnings, just require more fuel for us to be saved too.

Germany kept invading countries until everyone chose a side. We didn't start a war to counteract the holocaust.

The idea of a just war is always argued using the holocaust. It's the gotcha everyone loves. But that wasn't why the Second World War happened.

For those of you against ‘imposing from without’, should the holocaust not have been counteracted because it was a part of German ‘culture’ at the time if we were to assume that it were a stand alone event with Germany’s borders?

There has to come a time when regime change from without is the right thing to do. The question is how bad does it need to get.

Personally I think that, in Afghanistan, the threshold has now been exceeded.

Whether we put troops on the ground or just bomb Taliban assets from the air until they demonstrably improve women’s rights is a matter of strategy or tactics.

The Taliban couldn’t be more different than apartheid South Africa. There they had plenty to lose including considerable internal opposition to Apartheid (including my antecedents), so sanctions had value.

Talking about it will achieve precisely zero other than appeasing consciences either for the women of Afghanistan or any similar misogynist theocratic regime.

Hence, 'graveyard of empires'.

Imposing from without is always a terrible idea. Imposing from without and then abandoning women is even worse.

Trump who invited the Taliban to Camp David and later made the deal with them for the withdrawal of US troops? The deal which did not even involve the Afghan government? Biden was in the hot seat when the withdrawal actually finished (so catastrophically), but he inherited it.

8 September 2019: Trump cancels secret US meeting with Afghan Taliban
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-49624132

29 February 2020: Afghan conflict: US and Taliban sign deal to end 18-year war
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51689443

If you're waiting for Trump to do something useful to protect Afghan women you'll be waiting a long time.

There might be some empty bloviating if he thinks there's something in it for him, but the idea of protecting women doesn't motivate sex-offender Trump and he's highly unlikely to do anything useful.

That's not to say some opportunity to assist Afghan women won't come up serendipitously, and then we can take advantage of it. But sadly, don't hold your breath.

"If you give all the women of Afghanistan a free choice, unbound by a lack of access and education, and they all choose this, that's one thing. But men imposing this 'culture' on them is quite another."

I would argue that by trying to set up an "alien " system of governance" and interfering in the country over the last 40 years or more the west has radicalised the country and increased extremism and fundamentalism there making things worse for the women that live there.

Ultimately change will have to come from within . Not sure how this can best be supported though

You also can't dictate to other people what their culture and government should be. Afghanistan itself is testament to that.

There's can't and there's shouldn't.

In Afghanistan's case it's obvious that we can't. Everyone has tried hence 'graveyard of empires'.

It's important though that we should be able to tell other people that if some of them can't express thought, vote, speak, have to dress in a certain way that the other people don't, are owned, are beaten, are raped, then it's not a cultural 'choice'.

If you give all the women of Afghanistan a free choice, unbound by a lack of access and education, and they all choose this, that's one thing. But men imposing this 'culture' on them is quite another.

@Walkden ,

‘You also can't dictate to other people what their culture and government should be. Afghanistan itself is testament to that.’

I don’t agree with that at all and treating women and girls like brood mares can’t be described as ‘culture’ in any sense of the word.

I do think that we do need to show that we won’t tolerate it by travel bans for the leadership and their families and, ultimately, trying to force regime change by both financial and other means.

I hope Trump will be motivated to do something here after Biden so egregiously dropped the ball.

one of the reasons i want countries to speak up, and speak up often, is to have it on record that our countries care about what happens to women.

Right now i feel that women's rights are one of those "nice to have" things that nobody in power is really invested in.

"I think this is a good argument for universal human rights and we need to question the option that all cultures are equally vaild."

Whilst a noble idea in principles the issue here is that breaches of those rights are unenforceable.

You also can't dictate to other people what their culture and government should be. Afghanistan itself is testament to that.

Oh yes, I agree with you completely that "say nothing" is not the alternative.

It's extremely important to keep speaking up for women's lives in Afghanistan.

Very true. We had SA rellies and they HATED that we all thought they were complicit in racism. It was incredible cognitive dissonance.

I don't agree with @Newbutoldfather that economic sanctions should be avoided because of the old argument that it's worse for people. That argument was used in SA as well and it didn't hold water there either.

I think cricket and heroin are both important. For very different reasons.

A lot of their other imports and exports are with countries who don't give a shit. Pakistan, China etc.

All for banning them from cricket and all other sport and any activity where they can show off their ‘civilised credentials’ internationally.

But there is very little else to sanction. They are dirt poor and do very little trade.

It is the "speaking as one" that I'm after, the actual demonstration that women's lives matter.

I agree. Every other group makes sure that their objection is heard, even when it's much less of an issue than this. It's an important message. Women's rights are always secondary.

The Taliban do not give the shiniest of shits what the rest of the world think of them – other than how manipulation will be useful to them.

so we... say nothing? that doesn't work for me.
Agree that SA was a whole other thing. But we spoke almost as one, and it worked. It is the "speaking as one" that I'm after, the actual demonstration that women's lives matter.

A working history of the rise of Rome is never wasted. Always be wary of people who dismiss history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_the_Sabine_women

Agree with astute observation by @MrsTerryPratchett that different sectors care about different things.

But do bear in mind that a huge difference between South Africa and Afghanistan is that white South Africa cared deeply what the rest of the world thought of it (even those South Africans who claimed they didn't). It was a massive part of white South Africa's underlying myth that they were the bringing Christian civilisation to the continent, and that white South Africans deserved their elite position because they were the beacons of civilisation and virtue in a sea of uncivilised ignorance. (The gulf between this self-image and the reality would be laughable if it weren't so ghastly.)

White South Africans were deeply emotionally wounded by being told they didn't make the grade and weren't "one of us".

The Taliban do not give the shiniest of shits what the rest of the world think of them – other than how manipulation will be useful to them.

The ICC must be made to see that they are breaking their own bloody rules about the cricket. To be a member they have to have structures for women's cricket in place, and for youth training programmes etc. The men's team (the women's for that matter, too) are in exile and are not supported by the actual government of Afghanistan. They do not belong in international competitions for that alone.

I agree.

we don't need to invade.

Those women's lives are already unbearable, and their representatives are asking us to boycott. What we need is for governments and organisations to reassure ALL OTHER WOMEN, as well as the Afghani women we can't now reach (i assume RAWA et al have contacts) that they, we, care about all women.

That is all we can do at this stage. But isn't that better than just shrugging and carrying on treating the Taliban like a legitimate government, and letting those <sarcasm> poor Afghan men who can't go home play cricket? </sarcasm>

Or should we just reinforce the message to all women on the planet that nobody cares about us. When push comes to shove, and even before that, women don't matter.

It’s a total disgrace, but what can we do?

They are so poor that additional sanctions would only add starvation to their problems, and they would doubtless starve the women first.

Should we (as in the U.S) invade again? There is certainly a case for it, but I doubt they will prioritise it.

We should probably incentivise them to pursue policies on women’s rights and try to arm and help any opposition-but maybe we are already.

What they are doing is sickening and desperately sad, as has been our abandonment of Iraq and Afghanistan since the Cheney/Blair war on terror.

Personally, I think the Blair family should be exiled there en masse, but clearly that isn’t a practical or legal suggestion!

but the Taliban's form of extreme Islam just doesn't allow for any of that.

As i understand it the Quaran/Koran (sorry have seen it spelled multiple ways) lays out respectful treatment of women etc etc. In the practice many muslim men i know adhere to this. The Taliban are a whole other kettle of fish.

The ICC must be made to see that they are breaking their own bloody rules about the cricket. To be a member they have to have structures for women's cricket in place, and for youth training programmes etc. The men's team (the women's for that matter, too) are in exile and are not supported by the actual government of Afghanistan. They do not belong in international competitions for that alone.

Extraordinary Women from the Golden Age of Muslim Civilisation
https://www.1001inventions.com/womens-day/

It is a travesty.

These women in the anrticle are from a little later than the time of Mohammed. Does anyone know about or have pictures of 7th Century Muslim women, who would have been living at the same time as Mohammed and presumably following his edicts?

Maybe if the Taliban could be shown that
they have got it wrong, that might help.

Filia have written to the English Cricket Board and the ICC.
https://www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2024/12/31/cricket-and-womens-liberation-afghanistan

Excerpt

We urge the England Cricket Board to withdraw the England team from the forthcoming match against Afghanistan on 26th February, which is scheduled as part of the International Cricket Council Men’s Champions Trophy 2025 tournament. To go ahead with this match, while the Afghanistan government further restricts women’s rights and the ability to have any social existence, implies that the Board and the team are unconcerned about the denial of the most basic human rights for female people.
It has now been announced that there must be no possibility of women being seen by men in courtyards, kitchens, or at a well, and therefore no windows in new buildings should look out over such areas, and where such windows currently exist they must be blocked. We cannot believe that the England Cricket Board regards such extreme restrictions on women as reasonable, and to go ahead with the match would be understood as validation of the Afghanistan regime and its extreme restrictions on women’s lives. The Afghanistan women’s cricket team, formed in late 2020, fled Afghanistan in fear of their lives in 2021 when the Taliban regained control. To support these brave women, the England men’s team must refuse to play the only team that now represents the country. We are writing also to the International Cricket Council, in the hope that they will cancel Afghanistan’s participation in the tournament. However, whether or not this happens, we hope the England Cricket Team will signal the UK’s abhorrence of the appalling treatment of women in that country and withdraw from the match.