Trans remembrance flags and SNP renews support for LGBTYS

i'd say that if one's access to healthcare can be removed easily, as well as legal protections regarding gender reassignment being up for debate then that isn't actual power.

There's a difference between changing public attitudes/vocab and actually enshrining rights in law - ask any other minority group

I am having this same discussion with my gay friends - they are told constantly that the gay community has so much power and influence, while at the same time they are all terrified that we are one election away from their right to marry or adopt children being taken away (not an unreasonable fear if we look across the pond...)

I think you've got it all arse upwards, to be honest. FWR is full of intelligent, questioning women who won't just believe what they are told. So when we are told that trans people are the most marginalised people in society and that they experience all this discrimination, we want to see some proof of that.

Because whilst you seem to think that we should instinctively know it is true without needing any proof, we actually have some questions. Namely, how it is possible for a group to be so marginalised and yet so powerful at the same time.

Because if you've had half the words in the dictionary redefined to suit you, if you can get women fired for saying humans can't change sex, if you can have women labelled bigots for wanting single sex rape crisis groups, if you can get the prime minister to say it's wrong to say that only women have a cervix because he's more afraid of offending your group than looking like a complete idiot, if you can have half the corporate world bedecked in rainbows and putting pronouns in their email signatures, you're actually pretty powerful IMO.

This whole thread has moved in so many directions since i've been reading/commenting so its almost impossible to address everything that has been said. Apologies therefore if you feel ive "ignored" your points!

I feel like there are separate arguments happening, two of which ive picked out below

1 - whether it is reasonable for the govt to fly a flag for the trans community when others don't have a flag to fly/there isn't an official action for other communities.

for this, I can see the argument and can understand the posts on this point. As i've said before, i'd rather all communities and special days were marked in some way, not least because it gives voice to the myriad of issues we should all be pressuring our politicians to act on. 

2 - an argument that trans day of visibility is not reasonable or backed up by evidence, and is being used to bolster a false narrative for political means.

This one is harder, because no matter how gender critical one's views I cannot see how discrimination against trans people can be denied? Its evidenced so clearly in so many different aspects of public life. I don't know how the discussion became solely about murder rates, because that isn't the purpose of the day - Its about lives lost through violence, discrimination and other inequalities. Someone here (and i am paraphrasing) asked how transphobia could be a factor in someone's death if they "passed" and no one knew they were trans? How awful is that idea?? That is the defence used historically in "gay panic", and there's a reason that is no longer acceptable as a legal defence. No one should have to hide and live in fear to protect themselves from ostracization or violence, and even suggesting it means you DO acknowledge the existence of anti-trans threats! 

Like i've said before, Im not a TRA and ive argued previously to protect single sex spaces in certain organisations as well as other contentious points. But we cant ignore the reality and lived experience of trans people to pretend they dont have very specific discrimination and that it's not ok.

If the first one hundred people in a trans person's life know they are trans, and they experience discrimination, exclusion and prejudice on that basis, and from consequence to consequence find themselves in horrific circumstances because of this, and the final person that murders them does so in the context of those horrific circumstances, but despite not knowing individually that that they are trans, is their trans status not relevant?

You know, and doesn't this just say it all...for anyone reading who has any doubts..

Who knows intuitively, instinctively, the prejudice that exists, and is being told right here and now on Mumsnet Feminism and Women's Rights to doubt what we all know is true.

By sleight of hand, courtesy of FWR forums , be convinced, to distrust your own knowledge.

These old tricks. Most people are knowledgeable and bored of them now, but there is possibly still a contingent of FWR readers falling for them, I don't know.

Edited to add: I had tried to quote @ElleWoods15 's response to my question but failed.

Thank you for answering.

I haven't seen anyone use "trans" and "cross-dressing" as synonyms but I would agree with you that they are not.
Cross-dressing (aka transvesticism) is sexually-driven and this doesn't apply to all people who identify as transgender. And, as you say, not all cross-dressers will call themselves trans.

As an aside, it also feeds into the myth that there is a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a girl, and a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a boy. And I’m guessing that actually the vast majority of both trans allies and GC posters on this forum would disagree with that.

I think you're right, the vast majority would. The difficulty comes in when "gender expression" and "social transition" come into play. Whilst trans allies and GC-type people might agree on this, I can't imagine there would be many people who identify as trans who choose to wear the clothes that are stereotypically associated with their sex. For most, wearing the clothing and hairstyle etc most commonly associated with the opposite sex will be an important part of identifying as trans.

On the theme of the thread (and as a general comment, not specifically in response to yours), I would agree with the PPs who find it odd that the Scottish government wants to mark trans day of remembrance. Whilst all murders and suicides are awful, and this day is apparently international, the murders, suicides and other deaths of people who identify as trans don't have any relevance in Scotland. Except for Tiffany Scott of course. If it's about international solidarity, I wonder if they also commemorate the International Day of Reflection on the 1994 genocide of the Tusti in Rwanda or International Chernobyl Remembrance Day, both in April according to the list of remembrance and other international days posted earlier in the thread.

It's equally odd that they continue to fund and associate with LGBTYS, given the scandals in that charity.

I have found this conversation quite interesting. However, I have yet to see a cogent argument why SG should particularly fly flags for a TG Day of Remembrance.

How does a trans person suffer discrimination, exclusion and prejudice leading to all the above if no one knows they are trans?

But we aren't living hundreds of years ago. We're living in 2025. And all murders are recorded.

If you're not going to respond to any of the points in my post, I'm not sure why you quoted it.

I think we should use the trans day of remembrance to bring the details of Tiffany Scott’s recent life to the attention of every Scot.

You still haven’t shown discrimination. Or are you going to refer back to US pie charts that could show trans people completing a survey are more likely to be students?

Anyone is potentially trans Eresh! And we just don't know and can't ever tell, and its all covered up by governments who are hiding the data while simultaneously flying flags in memoriam.

I do actually agree with suggestions here, that the category of 'trans' is so vague as to be essentially meaningless.

Maybe it would be better to see it as a memorial to the latent and potential state of transness within every heart and soul. Except Tiffany Scott's.

I wonder if the prejudice and discrimination they face for being trans is relevant to their mental health

I would say the pressure of trying to control other people and persuade them to deny their own reality and feelings to prop up your personal identity, and them resisting this control, is probably a stressful situation.

You know every murder in the UK is investigated by the coroner and police? And the coroner investigates every suicide.

You know when murders of women weren't recorded centuries ago?

Does that mean they weren't being murdered?

Trans status could still be a relevant factor in their murder, yes.

These imaginary murders of British trans people that no one knows about that you've invented to suit your argument?

I wonder if the prejudice and discrimination they face for being trans is relevant to their mental health 🤔

You are of course referring to a specific report commissioned after the Cass report, rather the issue of young trans people and suicidality more generally.

I know what the CYP suicide figures have been in recent years and they are too small a sample to provide a picture of "young trans people and suicidality". Thankfully the claimed "suicide attempts" reported in surveys are unsuccessful.

Young people in this cohort are vulnerable because they often have significant comorbidities involving their mental health.

Trans status could still be a relevant factor in their murder, yes.

We know that this is a cause of discrimination, exclusion and prejudice, which leads to situations of social and economic deprivation, forcing trans people into unsafe circumstances, which then makes them vulnerable to crime including murder.

Their trans status has therefore been instrumental in their death.

Referring to trans people just as cross dressers is reductive and ignores the fact that this is about identity

What does a man base a trans identity on? A man’s fantasy of what they think it is to be a woman based on… what? Stereotypes? Porn? Misogyny?

Referring to trans people just as cross dressers is reductive and ignores the fact that this is about identity- not about what clothes you want to wear.

Cross dressing is sexual in nature, not simply "wanting to wear clothes". For me, the specific motivation isn't all that important as long as the male in question keeps out of female spaces, as all decent male people do.

As an aside, it also feeds into the myth that there is a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a girl, and a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a boy. And I’m guessing that actually the vast majority of both trans allies and GC posters on this forum would disagree with that.

There is only one way to be a girl; to be conceived female, be born and not yet have attained adulthood.

And also:

"However, there are good reasons to believe that their (young people with gender dysphoria) risk is high compared to other young people. They have often experienced prejudice and intimidation, isolation and family conflict."

You are of course referring to a specific report commissioned after the Cass report, rather the issue of young trans people and suicidality more generally.

Hi @BonfireLady, what I was objecting to was cross dressing being used as synonym for being transgender. It’s not.

There are those who cross dress and would not necessarily consider themselves to be transgender.

And there’s no requirement for trans women to wear a particular type of clothing that might be seen as cross dressing or vice versa.

(As an aside, it also feeds into the myth that there is a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a girl, and a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a boy. And I’m guessing that actually the vast majority of both trans allies and GC posters on this forum would disagree with that.)

Referring to trans people just as cross dressers is reductive and ignores the fact that this is about identity- not about what clothes you want to wear.