Trans remembrance flags and SNP renews support for LGBTYS

I think it is inaccurate to teleport the current trans identity back through the decades,

Never mind decades Maria they go back centuries to re-write history in favour of their cause.

It is imperative, however, to ensure that they are front and centre in the worst atrocity in recent history.

What's the difference between a 'trans' person and a crossdresser?

fair enough.

are you new to all this?

Erm, no. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of my Government.

there is very well documented violence and discrimination against the trans community globally, and I don't think its unreasonable that trans people in Europe would want to act in solidarity with people around the world?

2 women a week. 2 women a week. 2 women a week.

Flags on the 25th November or 8th March. I don't mind.

Until then I DGAF about other "oppressed" groups, frankly.

are you new to all this? brownie points (with which to beat everyone else over the head with) only accrue to victim status, which means the trans lot are more oppressed and down trodden than anyone else ever in history.

If you had read my posts before asking, you’ll see I’d already evidenced it 🙄

But I appreciate that’s not as fun as being deliberately confrontational and rude now, is it.

Please evidence your claim that they were @ElleWoods15

Because you say so @Ereshkigalangcleg ?

Don't forget that some mumsnetters ARE historians studying the period, legal experts advising Parliaments etc. I am impressed by the level of knowledge - both first-hand and researched - to be found here, with links to verifiable sources.

I think it is inaccurate to teleport the current trans identity back through the decades, for a number of reasons. The most obvious one is that the word 'gender' was not used in the same way in the past. The word 'Transgender' is a relatively recent invention, so it is an anachronism to talk about transgender people in the 1930s.

The term 'transsexual' was in use in the past, and referred to people who underwent sex reassignment surgery to resemble physically the sex they identified with. There was also the possibility of transvestism, which was a less invasive and permanent way to resemble the sex you identified with, or the clothes you liked to wear.

That bears limited resemblance to the transgender movement of recent years, which prioritises the concept of 'gender' over physical sex, so many? most? transwomen retain their male genitalia. They say they are women because of non-physical factors, like believing in a non-material essence of femaleness which they possess, and which is sufficient for them to be women, regardless of biology.

So all transwomen are women, because they say so, not because they have, like transsexuals in the past, had sex reassignment surgery.

The other aspect of transgenderism which didn't exist in the past is the current trans rights movement which has successfully campaigned for males who identify as women to have the rights which used to be specific to biological women; and for the law, medicine, education and everyday language to be altered to reflect reality as defined by the transgender movement.

The term LBGT is anachronistic if applied to the LGB movement prior to approx the 21st century, the T was added [somehow] around 2000. LGB activists prior to that were not LGBTQ++ activists, and shouldn't be referred to as such - if you want to be historically accurate, that is.

So to answer your question: yes, I am arguing that the 21st century group known as 'trans people' did not exist in the the thirties.

And it is known that among those other people groups, trans people were targeted.

No it isn't.

@ElleWoods15

Trans is not a 21st century political creation. 🙄

Except like so many things the term has been twisted so much that trans in its current form is a 21st century creation.

Like so many things that you posted the little truth that is there is hidden under the rewriting of history that TRAs have done and the twisting of meaning that TRAs are currently doing.

I can’t answer why the SNP might choose to commemorate trans day of remembrance, and not other specific days- that’s something only they can answer - but let’s not try and pretend violence against (and sometimes murder of) those in the trans community is ‘not a thing’.

A FOI to Police Scotland which was published this year confirmed that there has been 0 (zero) recorded deaths in Scotland where the victim was a transwoman. I can't comment on the rate of similar for transmen because I haven't seen a similar FOI.

There's certainly been no murders of those in the trans community in Scotland. So it's unclear why the Scottish Government aren't celebrating this fact. It's a good thing, surely? A day of remembrance seems odd when it should be a day of celebration?

If they want to have a day of remembrance, they could perhaps do one for the women actually murdered in Scotland? Or they could have days in which other groups of protected characteristics are highlighted in some way?

But it seems like the SNP have decided a hierarchy of 'deserving' groups for such acknowledgment. And guess which is top of the list....

Seeing that murders of trans people are not recorded in official stats in the UK:..

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) confirmed to FactCheck that “it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” and “the sex of a homicide victim is determined by the police force that records the crime”.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

..that analysis is as accurate as saying that no kit kits are consumed in the UK in a study examining only the consumption of mars bars and snickers bars.

But your argument seems to be that people in trans people in the 1930s were just cross dressers, which is incredibly reductive. It’s true that the German word at the time- ‘Transvestite’- carries that connotation for us now, but that wasn’t necessarily the case then.

By the 1930s people were already seeking rudimentary forms of gender reassignment surgery, and living full time in the sex other than that assigned to them at birth.

Trans is not a 21st century political creation. 🙄

You know perfectly well I am not saying that.

Your problem is thinking how you see the world now is how people 90 years ago saw the world. Trans has no connection or existence in the early 20th century.

It is self indulgence arrogance to presume to present them as being how you now see the world through your queer lens.

It is well known that there were people who cross dressed, had same sex relationships. Trans is a 21st political creation, that some people presume to say is how the world is.

As you know many people who are same sex attracted and challenge gender stereo types totally and utterly reject being included into the trans umbrella.

So you are the one at fault for demanding that we lable people as trans when it is clear that they didnt.

But carry on showing that trans activists are more interested in getting everybody to repeat their beliefs than deal with facts.

Silly me, @IwantToRetire . I always forget that mumsnetters know so much more than historians studying the period, legal experts advising Parliaments etc.

Sorry, are you arguing that trans people didn’t exist in the thirties?

I think it is historically inaccurate to try and impose of previous eras the political beliefs of the current time.

Trans people of today, and the politics surrounding them (and the activists hijacking the issue for their own politics) are hugely different to members of the lesian and gay community of Germeny post WWI and up to WWI.

And to quote a report on the court case brought about whether trans people were a target of the Nazis "acknowledged the possibility that trans people were persecuted". But that is just as much a reframing of those who were known as "cross dressers" as the attempt by the gay community today to queer everything.

Transing the past is now well known and laughed at. You might want them to be trans, but as nobody in the era thought like TRAs speak today it is just political appropriation.

The fact that the German government than turn the court ruling of "possible" into a fact so they could then perform very public virtue signally doesn't make it true.

Anymore than Nicola Sturgeon insisting TWAW.

It’s not antisemitic to note that the Nazis targeted other people groups as well as the Jews @AstonScrapingsNameChange. And it is known that among those other people groups, trans people were targeted. That’s been acknowledged relatively recently in the Bundestag.

Is your argument that there shouldn’t be a trans day of remembrance unless it can be statistically shown that trans people are more likely to be murdered than people who are not trans?

Worldwide, the way crimes against trans people are recorded will vary substantially don’t you think- some countries would record male against trans woman crime as male against male crime (incorrectly IMO- appreciate it wouldn’t be incorrect in yours), so there are unlikely to be decent stats on this.

I think this is already happening. There are so many causes for different days, often more than one day for some causes, that people largely don't pay attention, or even find it annoying.

trans murder, which has been happily shown upthread to be not a thing

Its nonsense to say that the murder of trans people is ‘not a thing’ @AstonScrapingsNameChange.

Quite apart from systemic targeting of trans people at points in history (eg. by the Nazis), there are many, many documented examples of people being murdered for their gender identity in this century and the last.

I can’t answer why the SNP might choose to commemorate trans day of remembrance, and not other specific days- that’s something only they can answer - but let’s not try and pretend violence against (and sometimes murder of) those in the trans community is ‘not a thing’.

But AIDS actually happens. People die of it.

Unlike the situation with trans murder, which has been happily shown upthread to be not a thing (in that transc people are demonstrably less, not more likely to be murder victims).

So why do we have public buildings commorating a thing that doesn't happen?

Perhaps they should start commemorating flat earth day, or alien invasion day?

NB My intention isn't to make light of any murder, every one is a tragedy. But I want to highlight how world Aids day, for example, is just not comparable to trans day of remembrance.

Yes. Self-ID, innit.

Some usernames do state reality tho <cough>

Not a dig btw, just true :)