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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rejoice! For there is another consultation! (EHRC)

86 replies

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2024 17:25

And lo, an angel came and said: it shall be completed by January the 3rd.

And a voice from on high said: Sex Matters has guidance for thee

And also: A glass of festive refreshment may help and perhaps a mince pie

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/ehrc-consults-on-code-of-practice/

https://sex-matters.org/take-action/respond-to-the-ehrc-consultation/

'The consultation is open for anyone to respond to, whether you respond as an individual or as an organisation.

  • Individuals can include people who give advice, lawyers, academics, campaigners and ordinary citizens wishing to challenge service providers.
  • Organisations can include service providers, associations and public bodies and organisations that give advice to others.
You should respond particularly if you are a service provider – a business, charity or public body that provides services to the public – or if you are an individual who uses services (everyone!) or an advisor. It will take you about 15 minutes to complete the survey. '

EHRC consults on statutory code of practice - Sex Matters

What needs improvement?  Be clear on the protected characteristics Give examples to help people think about harassment in relation to sex and gender reassignment Correct the section on sport, which is wrong in law  Stop promoting case-by-case assessmen...

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/ehrc-consults-on-code-of-practice

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ArabellaScott · 31/12/2024 16:35

Bumping for anyone who is looking for something thrilling to do this New Year's Eve!

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ArabellaScott · 31/12/2024 11:32

The Sex Matters guidance suggests quick and straightforward ways to respond btw. Only determined pedants need slog through the whole thing.

I think they suggest 3 sections in particular to comment on.

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ArabellaScott · 31/12/2024 11:31

I am on chapter 4! Determined to be thorough but that may change....

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/12/2024 11:30

Among other things, I told them that their lack of clear examples around sex and gender reassignment was dangerous to everyone. (To that extent I agree with the Trans Safety Network) If the EHRC take that to mean that the law is a mess and they'll have to go back to Parliament well that's fine by me.

Hope your existential crisis has resolved @ArabellaScott and you can relax and enjoy the New year goodies!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/12/2024 10:17

House of Commons briefing paper, I can't c & p unfortunately but the issue is discussed in pages 22 and 23, among others, and shows that it was considered a matter of legal interpretation on a case by case basis how far the SSE go.

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8969/CBP-8969.pdf#page22

Also the Women and Equalities "Trans Equality Report" from 2016, presided over by Maria Miller MP, contributed to by such luminaries as Mridul Wadhwa, Helen Belcher and Jess Bradley.

See page 27 and others.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf#page=7

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/12/2024 09:50

The government was itself influenced by Stonewall Law, and played its part in promoting it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/12/2024 09:49

The EHRC have definitely written guidelines before suggesting that all men who identify as women should be considered separately to other men when excluding them from a single sex space. Until Faulkner/Truss, that was their line.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/12/2024 09:46

However, where an organisation invokes the SSE, a GRC does NOT give a man with a GRC the right to be part of the provision of, or user of, a service correctly advertised as being SSE as per EA.

It doesn't automatically confer that right but the common law legal principle is inclusion, not exclusion and case law and guidance suggests It's a higher bar to exclude a man with a GRC, on a case by case basis.

ArabellaScott · 31/12/2024 09:36

CarefulN0w · 31/12/2024 09:17

I think that's why we - and I am looking at this as someone who will be implementing the guidance in a healthcare organisation - need clear guidance though. I don't want to have to counteract stonewall law. I just want definitive guidance that makes it clear that SSE are on the basis of biological sex.

Yep. It needs to be crystal clear and simple.to grasp. Currently we have a situation where even lawyers can't grasp obligations or responsibilities.

Part of the problem is lack of definition. This Code states that the law doesn't define what 'transsexual' means. It doesn't state what 'living as a.woman' means. Or even what 'gender ' means. The more I read it the more nonsensical and unworkable it all.seems.

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CarefulN0w · 31/12/2024 09:17

I think that's why we - and I am looking at this as someone who will be implementing the guidance in a healthcare organisation - need clear guidance though. I don't want to have to counteract stonewall law. I just want definitive guidance that makes it clear that SSE are on the basis of biological sex.

IwantToRetire · 31/12/2024 01:09

Xiaoxiong · 24/12/2024 14:42

Not sticking up for the Government or the EHRC, but I think Sex Matters are wrong, and still dont seem to understand the SSE (no doubt the moran has been pontificating).

Legally self identification does not exist. I dont think either the Government or the EHRC have ever said it does, in fact recently the EHRC has repeated it isn't legal.

There is a huge difference between what Stonewall etc., have managed to persuade people and what exists in law.

The law is about people with a GRC - and intending to get one (which is the really dodgy area of course)

So, at the moment as Lady Haldane said, once a man has a GRC he is a "legal woman" and "for all purposes" can be considered the opposite sex.

However, where an organisation invokes the SSE, a GRC does NOT give a man with a GRC the right to be part of the provision of, or user of, a service correctly advertised as being SSE as per EA.

Anyone who advertises (as ERCC did) that they are invoking the SSE but then include TW with a GRC are acting illegally.

As they would be if they include those who "self identify" as the opposite sex.

It is a cruel act by the Government to tell the EHRC to write a clearly explanation of the law, when in response to the recent judicial review by FWS, the EHRC issued a statement saying that the law is muddled and hard to follow. ie re-write the EA to say the word sex means biological. (Dont think the EHRC would ever call for the repeal of th GRA).

No doubt Labour as the people who wrote how the GRA interacts with the EA, and are so smug that women can, if they are very good, invoke the SSE in limited circumstances, want to make sure the EHRC toes their line by having to put it in writing.

Far better if the EHRC stuck to their line that the law is a muddle and needs to be clarified.

All this is totally different from the much bigger problem, that most of society and the media think the Stonewall guidelines are the real ones.

And as we know from the ERCC, they may have been found guilty of bullying, but they have not been charged with falsely advertising under the SSE.

Who listens to the EHRC when Stonewall propoganda is pumped out every day by willing followers?

And as is clear, no one has or every will be sued for falsely claiming a service is women only (SSE) but they in fact include men with a GRC, or not even that.

Most laws cease to be effective when the public as a whole ignores them.

And here we have a situation where not just the public, but local government, Scottish Government, funders and some women's groups deliberately break the law.

JanesLittleGirl · 30/12/2024 22:02

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2024 21:56

You didn't hover?

That would require a level of patience that had vanished about an hour earlier.

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2024 21:56

You didn't hover?

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JanesLittleGirl · 30/12/2024 21:50

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2024 21:03

I'm stumped by the hovercraft bit, I have to admit.

'In relation to the exercise of public functions that do not involve providing a service to the public, a duty not to do anything that constitutes discrimination, harassment or victimisation applies to ships and hovercraft in all cases'

This is about disability discrimination. I skipped over it.

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2024 21:46

I'm deep in it and now having an existential crisis.

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YellowRoom · 30/12/2024 21:36

Hovercraft are well known for their discriminatory behaviour.

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2024 21:03

I'm stumped by the hovercraft bit, I have to admit.

'In relation to the exercise of public functions that do not involve providing a service to the public, a duty not to do anything that constitutes discrimination, harassment or victimisation applies to ships and hovercraft in all cases'

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ArabellaScott · 30/12/2024 19:32

Don't tell 'em, Jane! They may lose points for SPAG!

Right. I'm on it like a car bonnet.

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JanesLittleGirl · 30/12/2024 19:18

The draft code provides much fewer examples of unlawful discrimination against trans people.

I know that I'm an annoying pedant but it's many fewer.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/12/2024 18:55

Bumpy reminder to fill this one in, because the TRAs certainly are:

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/s/GlgEB0pE6t

transsafety.network/posts/draft-ehrc-code-of-practice-concerning-shift-priorities/

Trans Safety Network have noticed some concerning changes that may indicate shifts in the EHRC’s priorities. Among the changes, we note that:
The draft code provides much fewer examples of unlawful discrimination against trans people. The current version of the code provides seven examples of unlawful gender reassignment discrimination by our count, all but one of these examples has been removed or changed to refer to other protected characteristics in the draft code, with only one new example added. This includes removing examples of discrimination by association and perception against cis women who support trans rights and cis women who are misidentified as trans.
In the draft code’s section on exceptions for single-sex spaces, emphasis has shifted from protecting the rights and dignity of trans people to “balancing” trans people’s rights to equal access to public services and spaces against imagined conflicts of rights. Language that upholds trans people’s legal rights has been removed from the chapter at various points.
While we welcome the draft code’s recognition that at least some nonbinary trans people have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, the draft code strongly implies that some do not and shows a worrying lack of clarity on when this is the case.
In the section of the draft code on religion and belief undue weight has been lent to the protection of “gender critical” beliefs with no detail on other political and philosophical beliefs that constitute a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.

ArabellaScott · 30/12/2024 12:36

I like the cut of your jib, Amaryllis. Although I'm not sure it's even possible to over invest in cheese.

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 30/12/2024 10:08

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2024 21:35

I, er ... got distracted. All contributions of wine and cheese gratefully received, although tbh this might have been part of the earlier distraction.

After a social yesterday where DH over-invested in cheese and we ended up with the exact same amount of wine as we started (generous friends!) you are welcome to a bottle of red and a large chunk of Brie.

I appeciate the care you're taking. I go for the "interested member of the public who doesn't get it all right" vibe - it's quicker 😂

CarefulN0w · 29/12/2024 22:20

You're gonna need it... cheers

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2024 21:35

I, er ... got distracted. All contributions of wine and cheese gratefully received, although tbh this might have been part of the earlier distraction.

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YellowRoom · 29/12/2024 21:29

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2024 21:23

Oh, well done! I need to gird myself again.

Still at it? I don't have a dog. Or brandy. Can send European dry white wine, next door's hissy cat and cheese if useful.

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