You’re Wrong About Why People Change Gender - Dr Az Hakeem interview

That sounds like an interesting read, thanks for the tip.

I guess the difference between a gay man's idea of being a sex object and being an actual female sex object is the difference between being a dinner date and being dinner!

With teens, I think almost all teens have some confusion and uncomfortable feelings about their emerging sexuality.

It's also the case that teens are hyper-aware of anything they feel makes them stick out or different - even just being the center of attention for something positive makes many very uncomfortable in a way that seems totally over the top to adults.

So it would not be at all surprising that teens who think their sexual interests are different from the usual would feel especially self-conscious about that - think of all the other crazy things many are self-conscious about.

The thing about roll models is interesting. It's struck me before that there are not so many really viable gay and lesbian roll models who are just really average and normal, or maybe better to say, those people don't tend to make their sexuality a central element of identity, and teens may not notice those people. Al out of the most visible gay icons are very over the top in their presentation.

I am sure lots of teens just aren't interested in being like that, and if they think that is what it means to be gay, or that those are the people they will be thrown in with, they may not be very enthused.

Evidently the medical profession hadn't caught up with all the gender-bending in popular culture!

The more I think about this stuff the more I realise that the social matrix in which it is played out is incredibly complex, and that the pressures and influences in particular cases or groups of cases can be radically different. "No debate and if we happen to collect any data we're not sharing it" is criminally unhelpful.

I think you've put your finger on something there. That though there is more general social acceptance for being gay than there was half a century ago, the wider picture is modified by subcultural elements, in this case the adolescent need to run in packs, and what is currently considered to be cool.

In fact I'm now wondering whether social acceptance of same-sex relationships is partly why being gay isn't a cool-kid thing now. Not "edgy" enough. So the poor gay kids fall between two stools; they don't belong with the majority (and will be made to feel it) and they're not weird enough to be an inside outsider (and will be made to feel that too). The exception seems to be transing to "become" gay (which actually adds up to being straight, but nobody's meant to notice that!).

So the social influences towards transition on older gay men may have eased off over their lifetime and lead to a drop in takers, but a young gay boy may feel differently.

@inkymoose ( long time no see lol) i always end up back with Helen Joyce on this, almost like she is a pontoon, i can rope on to where there is no where else to moor.

I believe our mind and body are one thing our whole being. One cannot exist without the other.

I believe this because when i walk around i feel my feet,

when i cry my heart aches

when i am scared my heart beats faster,

When i am anxious my stomach aches

If i have blemish or a spot it pisses me off but it is mine it belongs to me.

and so on

But most of all i grew in my own body, and gave birth to babies who have grown into sentient beings themselves.

So i know i am my body and my body is me.

Men do not have the grounding experience of birth, nor do young people.

flowing from that if a person says my body is not me they have a psychological disorder.

I do think there is less social stigma about being same sex attracted but I think there are few positive role models and a typical teenage wish to fit in. There is an LGBT courage collation who did a really powerful trailer on the desire to "fix" yourself and be like everyone else

https://x.com/lgbtcourage/status/1864789481062126071?s=46&t=xVOQDbf--_6fQjLOGCjMftQ

I do think cohorts need breaking down by age though. For the 18 and under boys in secondary school I know who identify as girls they are almost my certainly same sex attracted or autistic

What timescale was that talking about? Could the reduction in same-sex attracted cases be related to the reduction of social stigma around being gay? It would make a lot of sense, if so.

There is research which suggests that most, as much as 90% of trans identifying males do so because they are either autogynephillic or have a transvestic fetish. The rest are identifying out of being male for psychological reasons.

I think there's a lot in what you're saying Banned. It must be very difficult to be made to fit into any kind of stereotype, the manly man being one of the most difficult, perhaps. I have wondered about the whole "wrong body" thing, because who among us is happy with their body? I'm very grateful for my body but I have given it some awful abuse over the years one way or another. Maybe the changing gender idea is more about having the wrong mind. The mind doesn't match the body. (Not that a mind can match a body.) The mind says, "my female/feminine side is much more significant than my male/masculine side".

So feeling inside that you are not a manly man (not unreasonable I suppose) can lead to thinking you must be a woman?

Looking at that written down still doesn't make it make sense. I believe that sex is real and we have whichever type of body we are born with i.e. male or female. How we feel inside doesn't change our body from one sex to another. Our body is what it is.

Hmmmm it could be said that super manly men, (sometimes homophobic) are trying too hard to be men, they have had such specific socialisation in to the manly man thing, that, if inwardly that is not how they really feel, then they conclude they are more female?

I thought it was a great interview.

I agree. Neither morris nor jenner wear sexy clothes. I know jenner did that magazine cover, but he's usually smartly dresssed, no boobs on show.

Maybe it stops men seeing the fetish? They arent trying to be sexy so its not sexual for them?

That and they had noteworthy careers? Jenner was a sports star, but if he didnt i dont think hed be taken as seriously just as a reality star.

I was reading an ad for phalloplasty, where you have even less sensation, I believe. And it really glided over all the downsides.

And I've seen plenty of stories of post op men saying they have shuddering whole body orgasms, from head to foot.

Not being honest, and being entirely untethered from reality is a hallmark of the ideology.

But I agree, logically it doesn't make much sense. (Another major characteristic!)

The Forstater case set in law that we have the legal right not to believe that everyone has a gender identity. Therefore treating is as fact in law, sports, healthcare, education and workplaces is logically unlawful, regardless of whether someone has "gender critical beliefs" or not.

Thats not given.

People believe or not in different religions. The result is not to remove religion from these organisations, but to make practical and proportional compromises when people want to live by the religion. Not demanding people work on religious days, for example.

The starting point in sport isnt that gender is a belief therefore isnt relevant to sport, its how can we balance a mans right to practice gender ideology and live as a woman with others believing that he can never be a woman.

The proportional compromises may be he gets to live as a woman in the mens team, but we've seen lots of sports compromising in other ways and not falling foul of the law.

Also, they seem to convince themselves that they'll get female sentations instead.

That's why the vast majority (85-90%) don't! I suspect the numbers are falling all the time because SM and local networks for AGPs are so strong now. I imagine that those who do go through with it have more complex mental health problems and less insight than those who don’t. The internet is also awash with stories of men who have had orchiectomies or SRS who are distressed to realise that post surgery they did not have a misaligned gendered soul but merely a fetishistic sex drive which has completely disappeared.

If AGPs are driven by sexual gratification, what is the point of having the full surgery? To be blunt - if you end up with no dick you’re not going to be able to have a wank! Even if you’re one of the few who are left with some vestige of sensation it’s not going to be the same surely??

I was never going to convince a gender identity believer that they didn't have a gender identity. Nor were they going to convince me that I did. But we can logic our way out of this belief being enforced on to the rest of us. The Forstater case set in law that we have the legal right not to believe that everyone has a gender identity. Therefore treating is as fact in law, sports, healthcare, education and workplaces is logically unlawful, regardless of whether someone has "gender critical beliefs" or not.

This sums up my thinking too @BonfireLady That there’s no point in debating each others beliefs. Why I don’t debate or argue with my vehement TWAW DCs. We are not going to convince each other. The only thing I do is point out inconsistencies in the wider world (we agreed that Isla Bryson was not a ‘true trans’ but no agreement that it’s impossible to know who is/isn’t).

The only point in speaking is to resist the enforcement of that belief on me. That is quite hard enough.

Yes.

Thank you for reminding me why I like listening to what he says, even if I don't agree with all of it and find he sometimes misses some important stuff.

Everyone who has strong opinions on difficult subjects has a ego to some degree or other. But his humility in realising that this was the best kind of therapy (even if he does congratulate himself for it 😁) is refreshing to see. It also really helps to highlight his interest in this: he sees people as victims first and foremost. I respect him for this but it might also help to explain his forgiving take on Jan Morris. Perhaps he hasn't seen anything that would suggest otherwise with Jan (until I read Jan's daughter's article, I hadn't) - he certainly didn't hold back on Freda Wallace though. Presumably there's a point at which even the most understanding psychotherapist thinks "FFS, you're beyond help and are simply a societal problem".

I don't mind his narrow interest. He's an important voice on this issue and I'm thankful for him speaking up. I might just follow Banned's lead and re-read Detrans with the context of this thread in mind. It's a relatively short book, and flows easily from memory.