Dr David Bell

No I'm just capable of seeing the world as fuzzy and awkward intersections of complex issues where different people in different situations have different needs and have historically been mistreated in different ways.

I'm sorry, were you expecting a serious answer?

Ok.

Being a nerd does not make you transgender. Some but by no means all transgender people are nerds. Social factors often draw people from different marginalised groups together toward hobbies that provide them with safe arenas to explore their interests. Nerdy social groups are thus somewhat self-selecting toward high proportions of transgender people. This was arguably even more the case in the past when 'nerdiness' was much more of a source of derision, where many trans people were able to find a semblance of refuge by displacing transphobic abuse onto other aspects of their life. "If they're going to bully and sneer at me anyway, might as well make sure it's for something that is less harmful."

This dynamic itself sometimes explodes into its own form of toxicity (see gatekeeping behaviours that manifested within nerdy hobby spaces and metastasised into the new atheist techbro->gamergate->alt-right pipeline).

This has created a bizarre present that sees what have often become extremely inclusive refuge communities used to protect their often-marginalised memberships becoming conflated with Musk-style reactionary populism riding a 'geek is now cool' cultural wave.

Nerd spaces, by and large, remain committed to inclusiveness and have in many ways been the vanguard of feminist initiatives to effect positive change on society.

So no, I don't agree with your bait and switch argument trying to present transness as a side-effect of dissociation and social awkwardness.

So you haven't got a counter argument to the issue of dissociation with reality that gender identity that goes hand in hand with except yet another character slur at me?

Good stuff.

No I'm just capable of seeing the world as fuzzy and awkward intersections of complex issues where different people in different situations have different needs and have historically been mistreated in different ways.

🤣🤣🤣 the irony!

So you think children with DSDs should not have any hormonal or surgical corrections carried out until they’re old enough (advocates currently campaigning to make it adulthood), but you do believe that children who claim to be transgender should have hormonal and surgical interventions on their bodies at whatever age they see fit?

Your arguments are becoming so desperate you can’t even see the hypocritical holes you dig yourself into.

So what you are saying is you'd prefer Monica to cook for you rather than Gregg... Or even Grace.

... seems fair enough!

I just mean that if I had a gynaecological problem I wouldn't ask a random woman to treat me just because she had "lived experience" of having a vagina. I would go a qualified gynaecologist, even if they were male.

Similarly I prefer my restaurant meals to be cooked by a chef rather than someone who has "lived experience" of eating. I.e. having experienced something doesn't necessarily/automatically make you an expert in that field, especially if it's something complex like a medical/psychiatric condition.

I'm not sure I get your second point about "random vagina havers?"

Personally, as I've got older I now positively seek out qualified female gynaecologists if available

And everything is about "lived experience". I may own a vagina, but if something goes wrong with it I would trust a qualified male gynaecologist to treat me rather than another random vagina-haver.

Oh bravo, this is a new height even for you.

The practice of actively nurturing delusions and mental ill health has led to an intense narcissisitic focus - where everything is about the individual's feelings - which are treated as inherently fragile and prone to shatter when confronted with reality.

Follow in your footsteps? How very humble of you to frame it in such a way. In fact, you use the word "chilling"...

It infuriates me that trans people are just as erroneously convinced that they are denied treatment purely because of medics' self-interest and bigoted views as people with DSDs are convinced they were given treatment purely because of medics' nefarious agenda.

It couldn't possibly be that these doctors do not have a vested interest and are simply using their training and experience to judge what they think will result in the best outcome for the patient.

Not sure that arguing in favour of the grim history of surgical 'corrections' for people with DSD's (which have historically often been carried out long before the patient is capable of even being consulted, let alone consenting) is a winning strategy here.

The fantasy world that so many trans activists are immersed in is something that has always interested me because of the large numbers who are also obsessive about gaming, gaming, fantasy or sci-fi (the Whoniverse is a particularly interesting one).

These interests are massively over represented.

There's this weird disconnect between how the world sees and self identity generally too. It's not restricted to sex/gender identity. It's a whole cognitive pattern.

Unfortunately, regardless of how you identify reality has this nasty habit of disagreeing with you.

Dissociation is the key point.

Indeed we know there are bunch of dissociation disorders. These do not have demands for us to affirm their dissociation though.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/dissociative-disorders/#:~:text=Symptoms%20of%20dissociative%20disorder%20can,uncertain%20about%20who%20you%20are

Follow in your footsteps? How very humble of you to frame it in such a way. In fact, you use the word "chilling"...

It infuriates me that trans people are just as erroneously convinced that they are denied treatment purely because of medics' self-interest and bigoted views as people with DSDs are convinced they were given treatment purely because of medics' nefarious agenda.

It couldn't possibly be that these doctors do not have a vested interest and are simply using their training and experience to judge what they think will result in the best outcome for the patient.

Just caught up on this thread.

@ButterflyHatched I'm sorry you feel so angry at the "transphobes" who want children to have access to good therapeutic support that helps them understand and address why they might be feeling distressed about their bodies.

Perhaps they are autistic girls experiencing breast development and periods as difficult sensory issues. Perhaps they are girls who have experienced sexual abuse, who are identifying out of their "weak" bodies so that they won't experience this again. Perhaps they are boys or girls who have heard children mocking gay and lesbian people, who are concerned at emerging feelings of same-sex attraction, sadly disgusted and/or scared at thoughts of themselves as gay. Preferring instead to see themselves as "straight", but "trapped in the wrong body".

Watching you dismiss all this, dismiss Dr Bell and others who are putting children's mental and physical health first is as concerning as it is frustrating.

Hopefully anyone new to MN, or still lurking while getting their head around it all, can see the glaringly obvious flaw here: it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to advocate for children to have their puberty stopped. Forever. There is no puberty of the opposite sex, there's just puberty or no puberty. Brains that have been fully developed through adolescence, or brains whose development has been impacted. Forever. Children growing into adulthood with permanently altered brains, bones and endocrine systems.

It makes even less sense when we already know that at least 80% of children who feel this type of distress grow out of it without this life-altering medicalised pathway, that they are too young to comprehend anyway.

I truly hope that you are at peace with the decisions you made about your own body. From everything you've said, it sounds like you are. But that doesn't mean it makes any sense at all for you to dismiss the concerns of medical professionals like Dr Bell. Please stop.

The 'you will not be satisfied with the potential outcomes' is clearly meant to be a threat that if we seek to ban male people from receiving the oestrogen and progesterone supplements designed to alleviate symptoms of menopause, that we will end up blocking our own supply.

Absolutely. And although I'm sure most people absorb this information like osmosis, actually writing it out does show up the hopeless self interest of men who want to take wrong sex hormones.

if you don't let me take wrong sex hormones, and call it HRT to validate how 'womanly' I am and you make objections to it, then guess what, your own health will be at stake.

Shameless, manipulative, selfish.

I preferred the old ‘thank you’. These emojis feel a bit … adolescent. Sigh.

This nasty hate filled post is the fading roar of transactivism.
The Stonewall captured CQC found GIDs to be Inadequate.
Both the Conservative & Labour Governments have completely accepted the findings of the Cass Review despite both having been historically in thrall to transactivism.
The safeguarding lead at GIDS, Sonia Appleby, won damages from the Trust at an employment tribunal after the repeated attempts by activist staff to stop her raining safeguarding concerns about children.
GIDs is closed and the treatment of gender questioning children being moved into children's hospitals where evidence based ethical medical practice is the norm rather than the exception.
Time to Think - Hannah Barnes book is a detailed expose of the ease with which self interested transactivists were allowed to influence practice at GIDS. She highlights the ease with which the paedophile / porn scandal hit Mermaids & Gendered Intelligence groups were able to infiltrate what should have been a medical service for children to shape practice for their own niche demands.

Below is a link to an interview with Dr Bell. Maybe have a listen and consider who has children's best interests at heart ? Butterfly with the Pied Piper complex "children following in my footsteps" (remember what happened to the children led away by the Pied Piper) or Dr Bell with his thoughtful, evidenced knowledge about children:

https://www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor