CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

Actually, looking further at the profile on Twitter of Theresa Verity, who interacted with Willoughby, perhaps they really should not have been cocky with their 'cope' posts. Because maybe someone told them that whole face pics show a male profile. Of course, a hats will cover this....

But the posts declaring their backpack is old as their vagina is what???
Saying that a vagina is just like a backpack, a pouch to stuff things into?

A wonderful declaration that this male twitter profile has a vagina that is newer than female people's boring old vaginas?

Or just a brag that they are a male with a vagina?

Is there a situation where a female person would brag about the 'age' of their vagina?

It all really shows that some male people's interactions really highlight that they are not female. And they surely must know they don't present as 'female' in written interactions just as even in photos they don't pass. But apparently, people just have to 'cope' because that twitter profile fully believes that they do pass!

Surely someone has told them? Or is it that they refuse to believe it? Or they can't give a fuck?

The glaringly obvious bit to this is… if the person has disclosed before sex has begun, then that is it. In fact, if I thought this was an issue, I would also get back up by sending a text and getting a reply saying something about being trans.

However, maybe the ‘discrimination’ bit that stings is that this group is open to having to prove to court that consent has been obtained and they feel they don’t have to do this. Whereas any other person who is just as at risk of false claims because an ex-partner wants to abuse them just has to suck it up.

It has already been discussed on this thread. Anyone is open to these false claims. It is not ‘discrimination’ in that sense.

These arguments are just flawed from woe to go. And I cannot imagine why they think that these arguments are compelling.

It says that men who rape trans women are able to claim that they didn't know their victim was trans in order to confound prosecution.

Surely rape is rape and the sex (or gender) of the victim of not going to change that. The prosecution isn't going to say 'oh, you thought you were raping a woman/man that's okay so, on your way'.

Let's also consider that these young transmen are known to sign upto apps such as Grindr. Straight men now also sign up (as gay or bi) looking specifically for these young, vulnerable transmen as an easy lay (many such examples exist). They pretend that they see a true and honest man, but are actually looking for someone early on in their 'transition'.

Now, is that sex by deception?

It says that men who rape trans women are able to claim that they didn't know their victim was trans in order to confound prosecution.

Please link and paste the text of each relevant paragraph and clause which states this.

Oh yes, as they don't exist, you cannot.

The accounts from female people also shine a super luminescent light on the priorities of people who demand that they are ‘female’ but their entire focus is on male people.

The blatant misogyny continues to be pointed out but it is usually dismissed. And too often in an abusive emotionally manipulative hyperbole driven way. As we see on twitter. As we see here on MN.

It shows exactly what these male people think of female ‘oppression’ and ‘discrimination’. That it is only useful to use for claiming victimhood.

Hence why not one of these male people should ever be a ‘women’s officer’ or ever in a potential of influencing policy for female people.

Operation: Let them speak.

That account from a transman shows the gap between what women think men are and what men actually are (generalisation, as all men are different, but there seems to be a massive gap in understanding here.)

And she 'knows' she's a 'man', but went there specifically to meet other people like herself, in other words other actual female lesbians doing elaborate chemical-aided fancy dress.

I feel sorry for the blokes there to. People doing performative weeping in loos is always maddening.

Poor kid. What an idiot, and the world around her has fostered that delusion.

Circling back around to sex by deception. If part of the improved treatment for gender dysphoria involved going through that they are not going to actually change sex (because that is impossible) just alter their body's appearence, that would be good. It used to be part of what happened decades ago and it needs to be brought back.

The attitudes of the trans people on here and on Twitter make it crystal clear that this legislation was very much needed.

They have no care for the other person. The only feelings that matter are theirs.

They have no intention of doing the right thing and making sure they have informed consent without a law in place.

I agree. I did at one point think that once people reached 18, they could then decide. However, I now feel that that is too young. 'Affirmation only' needs to go as that sets people on a pathway with no (or only a microscopic) chance to get off the convyer belt.

She's 21, ffs. This is why no intervention treatment should be allowed before 25. I don't think it should be allowed at all, but if it has to happen

This is what being untethered from reality does to these young, vulnerable people. Of course she is 'pre top and bottom sugery' which makes it sound like an inevitable step, despite the huge risks of phalloplasty.

Ffs. This is what online trans propaganda has done. This woman, whose only concession was wearing male clothes, took her top off at a gay orgy and got terribly upset because nobody wanted to shag her.

She had only been on testosterone for two months, and was already getting weird looks from people, but thought acting masculine and wearing men's clothes would do the job.

She 'knows' she's a man.

Edited to add this from butters

You are once again displaying negative attitudes toward trans people or transness in general. There is a name for that.

The entire gay orgy was doing what butters accused me of doing, Neatly demonstrating the rampant homophobia that underpins gender ideology.

And, of course, the entire statement is gaslighting. I'm telling you I will base my sexual relationships on stealth and deception, and advise others to do likewise - but it's your negative attitude to that's the problem !

I agree Flowchart

But again we are also seeing the ramifications of a group being told that society must comply with their philosophical belief that they are who they say they are. It makes a vulnerable group even more vulnerable. All because a narcissistic tendency to believe that people have to comply with that person’s beliefs and that anyone who doesn’t ‘hates them’.

Personally, the chance of internal injury for those female people is high and simply never acknowledged.

I can't help but question the motives of her 'friend' who took her there.

Transmen are not a potential danger to men in the same way that Transwomen are a potential danger to women. Many gay men don't really want Transmen at their orgies/gay spaces though. See the 1st person account attached.

Don't deny the existence of trans people, so don't deny your trans status before sexual and romantic relationships, this just leads to trans erasure.

Butterfly

Instead, the CPS has seen fit to release guidance that actually makes it easier to harm trans people, and expressly provided listed examples.

No it hasn't, unless you are unilaterally redefining the meaning of harm and turnout around. The guidelines are to protect unsuspecting sexual partners, who, had they known, not had sex with you

The law now expressly protects non-trans people who abuse trans people they don't know (or 'don't know') are transgender. It pretty much provides a roadmap for men to get away with raping us by raising counter-claims.

I suppose I can see how that could happen, but it's not intentional. The intent is to give protection and redress to sexual assault victims, who have been conned into having sex with a member of a sex, which they would otherwise not have wanted.

But according to you, sod them, as long as you get your rocks off, that's all that matters, not another human prop in your life's performance.

There is a person who has interacted with Willoughby's post that posts pics of themselves in black and white telling people to 'cope' because to them they 'pass'. Well, except in pics where they are wearing face masks over the lower part of their face which then brings the focus to their brow and forehead.

Either way the rhetoric being used on twitter really does resemble what we have seen on these threads.

And speaking of body differences, it is important to remember that male people, even with suspended puberty, genetically have advantages in their skeletal leverage points and the different muscle composition. When compared to a female body of the same dimensions and weight will likely have physical advantage even without a full testosterone puberty.

I always find the discussion around young female people who believe they are male but engaging in male homosexual sex very sad.

Without a prostate this type of penetrative sex is not balanced. It is effectively making that female person a receptacle. And it is misogynistic in nature.

I am sure long time regulars will remember the male poster who told us that all teenagers need to learn about anal sex because the ‘stigma’ needs to be banished. And that the harms for female people should not be mentioned because of that stigma? I mean, it was like he had no fucking idea that even female people’s anal tissue was more delicate and susceptible to significant injury, and that female people were then highly prone to significant life time bowel incontinence. And why should female people be misinformed about anal sex??? To centre male people.

“This language - 'do not have a vagina' 'don't have breasts' - is bizarre reality denial and is actively offensive and exclusionary to other women who have undergone identical treatments to us in order to help their own bodies align with their own self-image.”

Eh? I was pondering this and wanted to come back to it.

Which woman are having fake vaginas created for their ‘own self image’?

And there is a significant difference between women getting breast implants to enhance what is already there and a male getting breast implants. This is just another forced teaming attempt.

“bizarre reality denial” indeed.

Yes @MarieDeGournay it is the equivalent of @ButterflyHatched for women. As the case of women who identify as men is often forgotten I thought it worth a look.

Two possibilities - the woman who identifies and presents as a man is attracted to men or women. Let’s call her Moth.

Various court cases have established that Moth would be guilty of sex by deception by having sex with a woman without disclosing Moth’s natal sex.

If Moth identifies as a gay man Moth will have to decide, like Butters, whether to keep a male partner in the dark. Dishonesty would put Moth at risk from Moth’s partner. I am guessing that Moth would be less likely to pass during sex and be more vulnerable physically.

My point is that transmen aren’t likely to get away with concealing their natal sex and are more vulnerable than transwomen.

I agree with others that dishonesty is no basis for a relationship.