CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

If you are massively only attracted to certain chromosomes, surely you just say that early on?

No one is "attracted to chromosomes" they are attracted to either men, women or both sexes. Trans people are people of one sex who identify as the opposite one, or as not having a particular sex's "identity" as per their sex stereotype based belief system. Their "identity" doesn't mean that their actual sex isn't relevant to others. Hope that helps.

Brainworm · Today 09:55

"Occasionalnamechanger you have said you are bi-sexual and your posts seem to reflect someone who doesn't really get same sex attraction when it is strongly based on one sex of the other."

This ^ maybe?

i'm not bisexual. But I have heard from several bisexual people that it's not just a free for all. if they want to sleep with a man, they want that to be a man, not a woman who looks like a man.

But I'm sure there are lots of people who feel differently.

The point is there are very many people, gay and straight, who feel repelled by the idea of the wrong sex. Hence sexual orientation and it being legally protected.

Obviously, fair enough. You fancy who you fancy.

Anyway, I shan't keep posting. This isn't really my circus or my monkeys (as neither a trans person or a GC person) - I was just querying. I've had my question answered.

Good luck with the dating all. Hope you find the right kind of sexy gametes. 😉

It's based on attraction to someone of a specific sex. Opposite, same, or both.

I'm attracted to the opposite sex. That's my sexual orientation. Within that, is my preference. Tall, rich, elderly, bad cough

So you're saying sexual orientation isn't based on attraction?

(I know this sounds weird and disingenuous- I promise, this is an honest and slightly confused question, and I'll go away and stop being stupid on your page soon!)

No, I think you're confusing sexual preference with sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is based on sex not hair.

@Occasionalnamechanger, you have said you are bi-sexual and your posts seem to reflect someone who doesn't really get same sex attraction when it is strongly based on one sex of the other.

Trans people don't needs to disclose their trans status. Just like people disclose their sex- based sexual orientation early on, trans people can disclose their 'pan- based' attraction early on. They can say that they only date people who are attracted to gender and have no sex-based preferences.

Signalbox · Yesterday 17:02

The homophobia against lesbians [or lesbophobia, if you're OK with neologisms..] in the McKinnon tweet quoted by Signalbox is so blatant and unashamed:

my sexual identity - y'know, as protected in some parts of the world by equality legislation after a long struggle for recognition, and still a death sentence in other parts of the world, whether official or an escalation of corrective rape - is a 'genital hangup'.

'Let them speak' strikes again.

I don't think anyone should or shouldn't do anything. I think for a lot of people their orientation is based on what someone looks and feels like. I am pretty sure mine is. I don't look at a woman across a room and wonder what kind of gametes she produces. I look at her and think "Oh, nice hair and cute tummy" or similar.

And obviously, there are loads of things that might make me not want to sleep with her. But that's different from orientation.

I think if you don't fancy someone then you shouldn't sleep with them and should feel absolutely no shame for that and I'd argue very strongly that anyone trying to push back on that is being insanely unreasonable.

"If you are massively only attracted to certain chromosomes, surely you just say that early on?"

People are same sex attracted, different sex attracted, or both. I'm pretty sure that nearly everyone is upfront about bring straight, lesbian, gay or bi. The mention of chromosomes isn't needed.

Occassionalnamechanger's post aligns with the TRA strategy of refusing to create or use new terminology. Different terms are needed to refer to people who are attracted to gender rather than sex, so those open to dating TW and TM can signpost this, and TW and TM can seek them out.

There are limited numbers of people who want to date, have sex with, or have relationships ships with TW and TM. This is a difficult and sad issue for trans people to manage. However, trying to dupe people into dating, sex and relationships isn't an acceptable way of navigating this.

And I think that's my argument. Everyone should be honest about their dealbreakers. Everyone else should respect those and it is unethical to not.

No one is obliged to disclose anything straight out of the gate they don't want to. Like, I don't have to say I'm Jewish in case I'm with someone who really wants a Christian girl, or bisexual in case a woman only wants a real sapphic partner or that I've had am abortion in case my partner thinks that's murder.

Those are all personal things that I share when I'm ready and if one of those would mean someone wouldn't want to sleep with me then they need to put that out there up front.

Yes indeed.

Well, yeah, if their definition of sexual orientation is "it doesn't matter if you look like a woman and have breasts and a vagina and I didn't know until you told me" then that seems to be to be a fairly specific orientation.

i'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Do you mean that if a man has had surgery and passes, or thinks he does, as a woman, then a lesbian shouldn't care that he's actually a man?

That's why this legislation is necessary. It's now a crime to deceive.

To be precise I don't think they've actually changed the law recently, have they. Just clarified that contrary to some beliefs, the law does apply to those identifying as the opposite sex.

I know a couple of gay people who don't want to date bisexuals. It is a massive dealbreaker. I know this and so I think it would be hugely unethical of me to decide to try and seduce one of them.

Quite.

And no, it wouldn't be illegal. Because it's not about whether you're bisexual, it's about pretending you're the opposite sex.

I'm kind of incredulous that people still don't know, or claim they don't know, that wanting to exclude men because they're the wrong sex, and they won't let us, is the entire point.

If a lesbian tells a man she is a lesbian, the chromosome aspect is implicit.

They don't suddenly go, well if you're a lesbian I'm coming in, but you're a lesbian with two X chromosomes then fair enough.

Well, it's not just proud GC feminists who have a sexual orientation.
If the words woman, man, gay, straight, lesbian and bi are absolutely meaningless, do you really expect everyone on the planet to talk about chromosomes?

Well, yeah, if their definition of sexual orientation is "it doesn't matter if you look like a woman and have breasts and a vagina and I didn't know until you told me" then that seems to be to be a fairly specific orientation.

Otherwise it is like a load of things you don't know and would hate if you found out (for better or worse, I guess). Like...I know a couple of gay people who don't want to date bisexuals. It is a massive dealbreaker. I know this and so I think it would be hugely unethical of me to decide to try and seduce one of them. I don't think it would be on me to announce any time I went on a first date with a woman that I'm bisexual and they might not want to date me and it certainly wouldn't be illegal, surely, if they didn't ask and I didn't say?

Or would it be?

It's only a little bit rapey so shush ladies.

lol at we’re the drama 😂

Occasionalnamechanger

Wanting to preserve your sexual orientation doesn't cut the mustard anyway.

You have men trying to infiltrate lesbian only online dating and social sites, to the point of taking the women to court. Trying, quite literally hundreds of times to get past facial recognition.

Stating that they're not the right chromosomes is less of a deterrent, and more of a magnet.

Personally, I'm straight. I'm not interested in sleeping with women, no matter how they identify. I like women perfectly well as friends, I have no problem with vulvas (what with having one of my own and all), I just don't find them sexually attractive.

Should I date someone get so far along in that that we're planning to sleep together, and then I discover they are actually a woman, then I'm going to feel tremendously betrayed.

Lying about something as fundamental as your sex is always going to be a huge problem - the idea that your sex doesn't matter but how you dress does is a fundamental disconnect from reality (also not great in a partner if we're being honest here).

BTW, I don't know what you mean by 'in-group posting space' but I don't agree - we're all welcome to post here, it's a public site - yes you'll be challenged if people don't agree with your opinions though. So in fact, it's actually the opposite of what I would call an in-group posting space - anyone can say what they like (within the wider MN rules).

Well, it's not just proud GC feminists who have a sexual orientation.

If the words woman, man, gay, straight, lesbian and bi are absolutely meaningless, do you really expect everyone on the planet to talk about chromosomes?

We already have men saying they are biologically female and others refusing to discuss chromosomes at all!

That's why this legislation is necessary. It's now a crime to deceive.

I am probably going to regret posting here and am aware this is very much an "in group" posting space, but I am just wondering - isn't this a bit of a drama over nothing 99.99% of the time?

If you are massively only attracted to certain chromosomes, surely you just say that early on? Either have that in your dating profile (I dunno "proud GG feminist looking for natal man/woman") or something, or mention it on a first date. And I'd imagine 99.9999% of trans people wouldn't want to sleep with you then and the only ones who would would be the kind of predators who would be predatory anyway. Like, I have various dealbreakers for people I will or won't sleep with, and I mention it early because several of my dealbreakers aren't visible either. And that's just how dating goes?

I once read a (really dire) story that a TW had written. Basically their own fantasy. All about how they were having an ongoing relationship with a man, who had no idea they were male. But then he eventually found out. And although he was angry at the deception, it was more about why didn't you tell me, I'm mad about you, you're so beautiful, and sexy and exactly like a woman and the sex is the best evah.

It really is all about the fantasy of being an actual woman, and therefore attracting a heterosexual man.

This legislation threatens the legitimacy of that fantasy.

Willoughby always comes across as absolutely fuming, and now this person, too. Unsurprising, I suppose.

Apparently not. But don't forget, other people are just animated props in their fantasy lives.