CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

Basically, do I have to declare that "I am a cis woman" before any sexual contact?

There's no such thing as a "cis woman" so no. Just don't mislead people about your sex and you'll be good.

Glad you found Mumsnet and this thread.
Hopefully your mind has been put at rest from the replies. If you're not lying about your sex, then this doesn't apply to you.

This. The thread should be reassuring.

"But it feels like there's an enormous amount resting on assumptions, on what people look like, and if those rules apply to trans people, they are going to apply to people who aren't trans too. Including people like me."

I have no idea what you are talking about. Sex by deception has nothing to do with appearances. It's about lying about your sex.

Amanita, please can you share what it was you read/heard that made you think that having masculine characteristics had a baring on criminal liability for sex by deception. It would be helpful to understand what misinformation or poor communication is circulating.

Isn't it.

Good of you to reassure this individual about their totally real situation, even though it could be resolved with their completely genuine birth certificate proving they're female.

MN is truly a public service.

I'm not butch btw
I'm being honest that I have some features, like facial hair, that I am ashamed of, that I try to cover up, but that doesn't make me a man. I don't think anyone has thought I am a man.
I'm worried that someone could use the law maliciously against me, people like me, because it feels like an impractical law.

I'm big on boundaries too, I think lying about marital status should be rape by deception. If someone explicitly lies about the sex they were born, that's deception.

But it feels like there's an enormous amount resting on assumptions, on what people look like, and if those rules apply to trans people, they are going to apply to people who aren't trans too. Including people like me.

It's a law that aims to ensure that people don't lie about their sex, so it really isn't going to be an issue if you're a woman not pretending that you're a man.

The convictions I've seen for this have all been for women who have deliberately claimed to be men in order to have sex with straight women.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/woman-wh

https://www.cambs.police.uk/news/cambridgeshire/news/2023/december/woman-sexually-assaulted-partner-in-ultimate-deception/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-34843973

https://www.hampshire.police.uk/news/hampshire/news/news/2020/january/woman-who-dressed-as-teenage-boy-to-sexually-abuse-young-girls-is-jailed/

Meh. Butch women being taken as men is a bit of a trope that many transactivists use to try to shame women out of having boundaries. And we're very keen on boundaries on Mumsnet.

Still - welcome to Mumsnet and all that. Amazing what google throws to the top of a search these days

Thank you for coming here.

I never have lied about my sex, and never would.
I guess my point is that I'm concerned the law could be used maliciously, and especially against women who don't appear "feminine enough"
I heard about this law, and this thread seemed to be the only place on the Internet talking about it, thank you for having me!

Glad you found Mumsnet and this thread.
Hopefully your mind has been put at rest from the replies. If you're not lying about your sex, then this doesn't apply to you.

Personally I can't fathom why the police spies cases don't amount to rape by deception. This was state sanctioned abuse of women and it's utterly repugnant. The fact that the courts don't recognise it as such is just a sign of how misogyny is still rife within our society and institutions.

100% agree.

I think if you are a female person, and you declare you are a female person you have done all you can at the time.

It sucks that some male people have made this an issue as they they have. . But unfortunately I don’t think anyone is safe from this law if someone wanted to use it as a tool of abuse.

It's not about being trans or how you dress or your medical history. You simply have to be honest about your sex before sleeping with someone. That's it. If you know you have been mistaken for male by a potential sexual partner then you should put this person straight before becoming intimate with them. It's really not that difficult.

Personally I can't fathom why the police spies cases don't amount to rape by deception. This was state sanctioned abuse of women and it's utterly repugnant. The fact that the courts don't recognise it as such is just a sign of how misogyny is still rife within our society and institutions.

Just don't lie about your sex, Amanita. It's not difficult.

I'm really scared by this prosecution guidance.

I'm a woman, and bi. I have PCOS, and as I've got older, I've got more hair on my face. I pluck it, but sometimes when it's growing back, I have visible black stubble coming back across my chin and cheeks. PCOS also means that I gain muscle more easily than many women.

I come from a tall family, so I'm tall for a woman, pretty average for a man.
I've always struggled with feeling like I'm not feminine enough, but I'm coming to terms with being me.
I had a high familial risk of breast cancer, and took the really difficult decision to have a double mastectomy and reconstruction. Mostly to make sure I am around to bring up my child. It means that I have scars and lack of sensation on my breasts - it's obvious that I have had surgery.

I dress pretty femme, but I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone to think I was a trans woman. I'm never trying to look trans, never trying to trick anyone, but now i'm having to consider the risk that people could think that.
If I kissed someone in a club (a sexual act), couldn't they claim that I deceived them into thinking I was trans? Indeed, if things were to go further, and they saw my scars, couldn't they say that's also deception? Do I need to explain than my breast reconstruction was because of a familial risk of breast cancer, to avoid the assumption that this was trans surgery? Feels like quite a lot of personal medical history to disclose.
I know some trans people only want involvement with other trans people. Some people are particularly into trans women, like a fetish thing.
Couldn't this law be used against me? Even if they didnt actually think I was trans, they could make the allegation against me if stuff turned bad between us. Basically, do I have to declare that "I am a cis woman" before any sexual contact?
It seems pretty messed up that the law could mean that if I don't tell people "I'm a cis woman", I could be found guilty of rape by deception.
But someone could tell me they are single, when really they have a spouse and kids at home. I wouldn't consent to sex with them if I knew that. In fact, it makes me a party to adultery, and until 2022 I could have been named in divorce proceedings. But that's not rape by deception.
An undercover police officers can get into a sexual relationship with a women. She wouldn't consent if she knew he was a police officer. But that's not rape by deception, according to the courts.
It just feels like this hasn't been properly thought through at all.

Yes, the penis people must always be supported to oppress the vulva people. It doesn't matter what gender someone claims to be, the end goal is always penis 1, vulva 0

Not only do lesbians get kicked off lesbian dating apps if they say they are only interested in female lesbians, straight men have joined gay dating apps to predate on females who say they are men.

If you are massively only attracted to certain chromosomes, surely you just say that early on? Either have that in your dating profile (I dunno "proud GG feminist looking for natal man/woman")

It’s been widely reported that you get kicked off gay / lesbian dating apps now if you state you are only interested in dating a person of the same sex. It’s considered to be transphobic.

Pretty much. Yeah.

But the thing is that either the people presenting as opposite sex fully believe their potential partner knows and doesn’t care or the potential partner doesn’t know and they have successfully deceived them.

Yep. Either consent matters, or it doesn't. Or, what would appear to be more explicit, is that it does matter, but it doesn't matter for 'transphobes'.

So it matters for people whose views I agree with, but not for those I don't.

Nice.

"It is an ill-fitting and over-simplified brute-force metaphysical label you are forcing onto us."

No. Sex (male or female, man or woman) is not metaphysical. It is physical. The confusion of physical and metaphysical is one of the many linguistic tricks that make this conversation so difficult. Gender may be metaphysical; that's not something I had previously thought about. Gender identity certainly seems to be a metaphysical concept.

I'd also be interested to know. BH seems to believe that there is at least one difference between men and women, yet hasn't been able to give any examples of anything that's unique to either.

So this could turn out to be one of the defining factors, which would help me understand what BH means when they refer to "men" and "women".

You will find people dismissing this as occasionalnamechanger most recently did as an ‘over dramatisation’ because surely people are going to have sex with a person they are attracted to rather than genital configuration and surgically installed genitals are equal to those someone is born with. They cannot see what the fuss is about. Some people can’t see what the fuss is about from either side.

We have male people who declare they are female who dismiss the people who want to know as being automatically transphobic because to them there is alternative - either you don’t care at all or you hate trans people.

But the thing is that either the people presenting as opposite sex fully believe their potential partner knows and doesn’t care or the potential partner doesn’t know and they have successfully deceived them.

What problems do you face that are not faced by men?