CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

I think there are a few things to clear up here.

In the UK rape is if a penis is inserted into vagina, anus or mouth without consent.

Therefore a woman cannot be convicted of rape (I don't think dildos count) and anything else is sexual assault, so the sex by deception if the female deceived the other partner would not be rape, but sexual assault or this definition of sex by deception.

A trans women if having sex whilst having lied over their biological sex would not be convicted of rape unless they used their penis inside the other partner.

The guidance also says that “some may think it necessary to conceal their sex” to meet the condition of living in their new identity for two years before they can obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Yet another brick crumbling as to the fate of the GRC. If some people believe they have to ‘conceal’ their sex and deceive others to ‘live as ‘ their identity, it really shows this certificate as being very harmful in too many ways.

The guidance also says that “some may think it necessary to conceal their sex” to meet the condition of living in their new identity for two years before they can obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate.

They are the same men who think they have to use the same public toilets and changing rooms as young girls. The guidance would be better to put these mens concerns at rest and confirm its just id that needs to be changed.

"Many people who have transitioned may not regard themselves as trans, but simply as a man or a woman."

This is one of the most ludicrous part of the guidance. They are not trans if they don't regard their gender identity to be different from their sex.

If someone tells people, including themselves, that they are not the sex that they are, they are lying - whether they are trans or not. The motivation could be different, but it is still a lie.

An exclusion that allows trans people to lie about their sex will just make this legislation entirely useless. Who wouldn’t claim to be trans to dodge a rape conviction?

Trans people want to pretend they are something they're not, the opposite sex. They therefore want to break this law.

Women like you are not pretending to be something you're not, you just are a woman and therefore are not breaking the law

My mother regularly shaved significant amounts of stubble, she was very much a woman.

As with most instances though, a female person just has to speak and tell the truth (material reality truth, not a personal truth) and that is alll that is needed. This discussion of ‘abuse’ must surely come from some one laying false claims to be then investigated. And anyone, male or female, can be subject to that.

This entire scenario about male people with transgender identities being specifically targeted misses the entire point that anyone can be subject to false claims. But in the case of those male people, the ‘false’ claim may well be that true that the person did not disclose. And is then subject to a criminal charge, because they didn’t disclose the material reality of their bodies.

The slight advantage in muscle development PCOS women have would still not let one, even one who exercised a lot, have male-type musculature. I'm sure someone has the relevant graph. Bone development is also instantly recognisable, particularly the hips.

Are these 'butch women' I never heard of until the last couple of years all a product of male fantasy. I once met a woman with a full beard, presumably because of PCOS or something similar. No one could have mistaken her for a man.

"Butch woman and woman with PCOS would have a much easier time if widely accepted social convention (and the law) was that only natal females will use them. The assumption would be that facial stubble or masculine appearance need to raise questions. The same applies to potential sexual partners."

'Use them' - this refers to single sex provision

They are confusing the law allowing privacy and the right to a family life, with secrecy, and are forgetting everyone elses right to consent.

Its a pointless lie, but having a marriage certificate saying a man married a women doesn't inpact on my right to consent. Pretending that sex is not important, or can change, or is on a spectrum is. And its a dangerous idea to be pushing.

Its not then privacy and the right to a family life, its an ideology being pushed onto society.

"To the point that they think that they should be able to not disclose what their sex is when this is needed. It is the righteousness that literally and figuratively drips off some people that defies believe."

And this isn't good for anyone, it simply sets the scene for distress, anger and tension.

A pluralist society, which Britain claims to be, needs members of society to understand that seeking to police other's thoughts and expecting them to pretend they believe things they don't isn't acceptable. Even as a lefty, I blame the authoritarian left for this.

Butch woman and woman with PCOS would have a much easier time if widely accepted social convention (and the law) was that only natal females will use them. The assumption would be that facial stubble or masculine appearance need to raise questions. The same applies to potential sexual partners.

That is how it has always come across though.

And the way that some posters frame it , and the language they use to state it is DARVO.

Like that question that signal asked which got the answer that if you weren’t aware of the poster’s preference for obscuring their views with what they just see as romantic embellishments and attempts at intellectualising their statements to leverage in some borrowed appeal to authority. They tried to obscure their answer and even had a go at me for bluntly stating their answer.

Stealth is in their actions and their interactions. But the hilarious part of it is despite all attempts to obscure the meanings of their words, or to support them with false intellectualism, or whatever, their interactions have generally been very clearly male. No stealth could hide it!!

Agree that this concept that everyone has to be supportive of someone’s identity, that anyone who demands their identity be fully accepted should have this artificial ‘safety’ ensured is counter to the ability to live in the world and make healthy decisions.

That a group should be supported by society to only ever have their chosen and artificially curated reality enforced for everyone they come in contact with was never achievable and surely must be considered unhealthy. And that this group of people now believe that this privilege that society has been told to extend to them is needed for their ‘survival’ and is morally right can not be celebrated as success. To the point that they think that they should be able to not disclose what their sex is when this is needed. It is the righteousness that literally and figuratively drips off some people that defies believe.

While we are supposedly now having to teach our children resilience, there does seem to be a distinct lack of it being counselled for this group of people. Indeed, the ability to claim oppression seems to be at the forefront of this movement.

I am struck by how hard of thinking people are assumed to be (are?) in relation to claims that laws that can't readily be policed/controlled shouldn't be introduced. Our society is littered with laws where violations can't readily be prevented. People are expected police themselves and abide by the law.

I wonder if when drink driving laws were brought in, people argued they were pointless as people can just get in a car and drive and you can't always see that done e has been drinking. I wonder if people thought domestic violence laws were not feasible because this happens behind closed doors, so no-one knows and perpetrators are often thought to be fine, upstanding citizens.

It's ridiculous!

Meh. Butch women being taken as men is a bit of a trope that many transactivists use to try to shame women out of having boundaries.

Yes, masculine women in the ladies means we can't have single sex spaces.

And now women with PCOS means sex by deception is too impractical a law to implement.

Poor us, we can't stop fucking it up for ourselves.

Its queering everyones sex life.

Yes. Deliberate deception about one's sex in a sexual relationship 'vitiates consent', which is a legalistic and polite way of saying its rape or sexual assault.

I get the sense that duper's delight is a common fantasy for some - 'going stealth' in terms of sexual relationships is the intent to deliberately deceive.

"Trans people will have to come to terms with the fact that when sex is important, concealing it is wrong. If that means they would be outed, so be it. They have the choice to avoid those situations."

This is where psychology took a very poor turn in trans health care. Originally, a positive outcome was considered to be achieved when 'patients' understood their 'transition' to be a process they undertook to help them feel more comfortable with their natal sex. It was recognised that being misgendered or having people code you by your sex rather than gender was upsetting but resilience was required. Now, many/most practitioners consider efforts to build resilience 'victim blaming'.

Support for trans people should include helping them understand that not everyone thinks gender identity is important and not everyone believes transition results in changing sex; furthermore, many (most) of these people neither hate trans people and certainly don't want to harm them. Within this context, 'outing yourself' whilst psychologically upsetting, will feel less overwhelming.

The scenario that someone assumes they are having sex with a man pretending to be a woman, but is in fact having sex with a woman could in any way be illegal is madness. Unless that woman says she's is a man pretending to be a woman. Its the lying part that is wrong.

We are living in the real world, not a trans utopia, when someone says they are a woman or man and sex is important, it has to be assumed that they are the sex a reasonable person would assume.

Trans people will have to come to terms with the fact that when sex is important, concealing it is wrong. If that means they would be outed, so be it. They have the choice to avoid those situations.

AmanitaFTW

This law is about deliberate deception in order to obtain sex. Not about people wondering why you might have stubble. If a potential sexual partner makes the mistake of thinking you're a man, it's not you doing any deceiving, is it?

As long as you haven't told anyone that you're really a transwoman, in order to have sex with them, you haven't done anything wrong.

Previous examples on here have been biological men going out of their way to make a potential partner (and everyone else) think they're a woman.

The law can't be 'maliciously used against you', unless you've broken it.

I don't think anyone has thought I am a man. I'm worried that someone could use the law maliciously against me, people like me, because it feels like an impractical law.

If you are a woman who has never been mistaken for a man and who has no intention of pretending to be a man in order to have sex with someone you really have nothing to fear from this law. How do you imagine someone could use the law maliciously? They would have to accuse you of having lied about your sex in order to have sex with them. This would be equivalent to making a false rape claim.

Some people are missing the point of this law. Its to protect vulnerable people and people in vulnerable situations. I think some are assuming that its the trans person who is the vulnerable in every sexual situation, but that really isnt true.

Not caring about the sex of the person you jump into bed with is the niche opinion, not the otherway round. Hiding your sex is a niche passtime, not the norm. Expecting everyone to confirm the sex of the partner, who is doing all they can to hide their sex, is trying to normalise the unusual and marginalised normal behaviour. Its queering everyones sex life.

That said, I'm old enough to think having sex with someone you've never had a conversation with is high risk in many ways, particularly for women. Ditto having a sex life involving brain -altering or -numbing substances.

Mental clarity and conversation don't leave much space for confusion around what sex a person is.

I don't think this is likely to be a problem for you, but if you're with a man and worried but don't want to say 'you know I'm a woman, right?' a murmur of 'I'm on the pill but you must use a condom anyway' should leave matters quite clear.

With a woman if you're worried go with the 'you know . . . ' bit.