Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

713 replies

Chariothorses · 14/12/2024 13:29

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service

https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/consultation-cps-guidance-deception-gender-summary-responses

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
SinnerBoy · 17/12/2024 19:54

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 13:12

I will be countering Butterfly's misinformation every single time.

Yes, it's highly necessary to not allow they to go unanswered. Casual readers might otherwise conclude that they is posting reasonable and innocuous information, rather than disinformation about suicides, or the apparent moral imperative for one group of people to have sex by deception.

MarieDeGournay · 17/12/2024 19:06

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:58

If only it were that easy and all bigots clearly broadcast their bigotry so we can steer clear, eh?

'Oh, they do, Oscar, they do'.Smile

You have a way with words, ButterflyHatched - this time it's 'bigots' and 'bigotry', which you stretch out of shape to include people who do not wish to have sex with a person who does not belong to the biological sex that they are attracted to.

'Bigotry' involves things like antagonism, irrationality, prejudice etc., whereas 'Sorry mate I only fancy women' is just a statement of fact, which can be made politely, and possibly even accompanied by ' ..but let's finish our G&Ts. So, who do you think is going to win the Premier League/Dancing with the Stars/BBC Young Musician of the Year/Nobel Prize for Chemistry..'?'

No antagonism, no bigotry, just a statement of fact.

Greyskybluesky · 17/12/2024 19:01

I await the mansplaining as to why men can be feminists

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 18:58

Men can be "feminist allies" but I find that men who claim to be feminists are frequently the exact opposite.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 18:58

I agree @Greyskybluesky

Greyskybluesky · 17/12/2024 18:57

Men cannot be feminists. They can support its aims, but they cannot claim it as part of their identity.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 18:50

yourhairiswinterfire · 17/12/2024 18:19

I might try to respond with something along the lines of "That's an odd question - would it make a difference to you? I'm a feminist, by the way, and I have no interest in dating transphobes so I'm not sure this is going to work out. Let's save ourselves both a lot of time here."

Sexual orientation isn't transphobic. Some people don't want to have sex with someone of a particular sex, it doesn't make them homophobic, transphobic or fragile, and they certainly don't need to 'reflect' on their sexual orientation, or 'ideology', as you put it. A heterosexual man not wanting to shag you does not make you a victim of some '-phobia' or '-ism'.

They have a right to say no and to not be duped into having sex with a male, and if you're not going to be honest about your sex with people you're trying to have sex with, then they're going to have to ask. Nothing odd about it, it's quite sensible and gives you the chance to avoid committing a sexual offence.

Believe me, I have absolutely no issue with people not wanting to shag me - non-trans straight male or otherwise - and that has, how shall we say, not exactly been a struggle that has been close to my heart for any of my adult life so far - I have had a lot of experience of finding safe ways to say 'no'.

Thankfully nowadays you can generally be pretty confident that declaring yourself to be a feminist will weed out the obviously toxic ones from the outset as it's become something of a point of pride for the braying culture warriors with misogynistic views. It gets thornier when they like the idea of themselves being progressive but are still dealing with internalised homophobia/transphobia and channel that into trans-hostile ideology. That's when situations are most likely to turn dangerous in today's world, in my experience.

Helleofabore · 17/12/2024 18:46

Any person who is putting themselves in danger by being somewhere without their own transport when they have not formed any degree of trust in their relationship and their about to have sex for the first time with that person doesn’t seem to be making healthy decisions. Regardless of whether they have not disclosed their sex category or not.

AlisonDonut · 17/12/2024 18:43

Why would you want to dupe people into sex in the first pla...oh.

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/12/2024 18:25

How long does it take to discuss women’s rights to single sex spaces, whether someone’s a JK Rowling fan & if putting pronouns in signatures is compelled speech?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 18:25

I seem to have managed it all my life.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 18:24

It's perfectly easy not to have sex with people without deceiving them about one's sex Confused

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/12/2024 18:21

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:58

If only it were that easy and all bigots clearly broadcast their bigotry so we can steer clear, eh?

We're quite lucky on FWR - we get to swiftly identify those seething with bigotry and dislike for women. Misogynists can rarely resist the temptation to display their innermost prejudices against women and girls so their contempt is plain for everyone to see. .

yourhairiswinterfire · 17/12/2024 18:19

I might try to respond with something along the lines of "That's an odd question - would it make a difference to you? I'm a feminist, by the way, and I have no interest in dating transphobes so I'm not sure this is going to work out. Let's save ourselves both a lot of time here."

Sexual orientation isn't transphobic. Some people don't want to have sex with someone of a particular sex, it doesn't make them homophobic, transphobic or fragile, and they certainly don't need to 'reflect' on their sexual orientation, or 'ideology', as you put it. A heterosexual man not wanting to shag you does not make you a victim of some '-phobia' or '-ism'.

They have a right to say no and to not be duped into having sex with a male, and if you're not going to be honest about your sex with people you're trying to have sex with, then they're going to have to ask. Nothing odd about it, it's quite sensible and gives you the chance to avoid committing a sexual offence.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:58

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/12/2024 17:56

So don’t take the risk. Don’t have sex with someone until you’ve got to know them well enough that you feel safe telling them you’re male.

If only it were that easy and all bigots clearly broadcast their bigotry so we can steer clear, eh?

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/12/2024 17:56

So don’t take the risk. Don’t have sex with someone until you’ve got to know them well enough that you feel safe telling them you’re male.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:51

ArabellaScott · 17/12/2024 17:38

It is not homophobic for a straight man to not want to have sex with another man.

That's very true. Unfortunately you have no way of knowing whether he's homophobic or transphobic or not and the point where he's asking that question despite showing interest up until that point is a clear sign that he's attracted enough to you for it to potentially trigger an explosive homophobic/transphobic insecurity reaction.

I wouldn't take the risk at that point.

ArabellaScott · 17/12/2024 17:38

It is not homophobic for a straight man to not want to have sex with another man.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 17:16

TWETMIRF · 17/12/2024 15:17

So Butters, if you were about to get it on with a chap and he says 'just want to check you're not a fella', would you be truthful and say yes you are or would you lie and say you're a woman?

Yeesh, well that's a bad situation to be in.

To answer your question requires a fair bit of detail on situations posters will be familiar with and it's likely to not be a pleasant read, so this is an advance warning.

Suddenly being confronted with that question would be triggering the hell out of my existing fight or flight trauma responses and make me want to get the hell out of that situation ASAP in order to escape potential harm, so I'd be looking for the quickest safe exit that would protect me from disclosure and the potentially life-ruining implications it would hold.

If it came out of nowhere I can't say with any certainty if I'd be able to keep a cool head and gracefully find a safe way out without revealing how frightened the question had made me - a dangerous thing to reveal. It would depend on the wider context and what else I knew about the person in question, ultimately - I've had a lot of experience dealing with men like this over the years, unfortunately.

If I was alone in a remote place with this guy, especially without my own means of transportation, there would be a very real danger that disclosure could be life-threateningly dangerous. I couldn't trust that the man in question, having already hinted at holding negative opinions about trans people, would be likely to have much better views about women and consent in general - so even just firmly withdrawing consent in this context and asking to go home is already dangerous.

If I'm thinking quickly and it seems safe, I might try to respond with something along the lines of "That's an odd question - would it make a difference to you? I'm a feminist, by the way, and I have no interest in dating transphobes so I'm not sure this is going to work out. Let's save ourselves both a lot of time here."

Hopefully, if he isn't a creep, he'd take it as an opportunity to reflect on his own ideology - he's likely to meet plenty of other feminists in his life and this is going to be a common response.

If I was getting a sense that he was using it as a hypothetical question to confirm I shared his secret anti-trans views, and only the transness part would be the dangerous bit, I might instead try an angle of 'absolutely not and as a gender critical feminist I find the notion offensive, please apologise immediately' - it's a dangerous gambit but we're already in a dangerous situation and it might be enough to buy time and escape the immediate threat.

If the vibes are so bad that it's clearly not safe to even challenge him at all, then we're already into nightmare crisis survival mode. The only safe course at that point is to do or say nothing that could make the situation worse. I certainly wouldn't reveal I was trans at that moment.

I've had surgery, I never developed adult male muscle mass and strength and my appearance doesn't give any indication that I am trans, so at this point I'm effectively in the same situation any other non-trans woman is when having to find a safe way to communicate a lack of consent and escape danger after you've just discovered your partner is probably a hostile bigot and you don't want to stick around to find out.

The priority would be de-escalating the immediate situation and bringing him back 'on side'. A long, long time ago I used to have success with absurd humour or sarcastic deflection (a comically overblown and unambiguously OTT mock-confession like 'oh my god my terrible secret is out! All this time I have actually been Dave the Deceiver!') to break the tension and humanise myself in his eyes while creating the impression that it isn't a big deal; we're friends and can have a laugh about it, right?

In my unfortunately quite extensive experience, fragile men like this are often deeply insecure, deeply homophobic and terrified of being humiliated or made to look foolish, so the key thing would be to never make them feel powerless while assuring them that their masculinity (and heterosexuality) isn't in any way threatened.

De-escalate; disengage but don't do so suspiciously. We're chill people having a nice chill date. Nothing is harmed; nothing is threatened. His manhood and pride remain safely intact.

As soon as there's a suitable exit, take it and never ever engage again.

The reality of course is that it's incredibly difficult to Poker Face your way through these situations and fragile men get very unstable when their insecurity triggers. It's all very well having an idea of what you probably should do, but fear, proximity and context can throw that all out of the window.

It is not a situation I would ever want to get close to being in if possible, but I have been in similar ones quite a few times when I was younger unfortunately.

That was a rotten place to revisit. Not particularly interested in going there again, so thanks for the question I guess and I hope the answer was helpful but I'm really not interested in spending any more time on it.

MarieDeGournay · 17/12/2024 16:27

ButterflyHatched Glad your partner felt safe to disclose his medical history with you - that's a pretty solid endorsement that you've given off sufficient good vibes to make it clear it wasn't going to be a problem to do so.

But it wouldn't be 'a problem' to disclose relevant medical history, such as the one referred to by the poster, in a timely manner. It's about honesty and consent, not 'good vibes or bad vibes'.

The timing is significant. To quote my earlier post 'If a transwomen, a.k.a. a biological male, sets their sights, unluckily, on a woman who turns out to be one of those awful GC terves' and discloses in a timely manner that they are trans - perhaps before the 9th G&TWink - the evening can be brought to a polite end:
'Sorry mate you're not my type'.

Full disclosure in a timely manner, decision on consent, conclusion of interaction - what's the problem?

Unless you are referring to men - it's true that their 'bad vibes' can turn nasty.
Apparently one of the reasons why transwomen want to use women's toilets is because of the bad vibes they get from men in the men's.

Hopefully these experiences of male 'bad vibe's are being addressed on more relevant sites than FWR on MN, where we already know all about it.

EmpressaurusKitty · 17/12/2024 15:42

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 15:32

That's very reasonable. I don't think that advocating for open honesty in relationships makes you anti-trans at all, for ref.

Glad your partner felt safe to disclose his medical history with you - that's a pretty solid endorsement that you've given off sufficient good vibes to make it clear it wasn't going to be a problem to do so.

But why the hell would you start a sexual relationship with someone if you didn't know you could be honest with them about being male?

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 15:35

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 17/12/2024 14:53

Being a heterosexual man who is only attracted to women, and does not wish to have sex with a gay man =/= being transphobic or homophobic. It's a personal preference, not a philosophical position.

I wholeheartedly agree with the text of this statement.

ButterflyHatched · 17/12/2024 15:32

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 17/12/2024 14:41

I'm not anti trans people but I am all for open honesty including being fully aware of any factors that could have a bearing in a decision to consent to have sex with someone. of course according to butters that makes me anti trans. Funny how perspectives can be so different.

You can not give informed consent without open and honest disclosure. As the partner of someone with a dsd he made sure I was fully aware of the implications before we started a sexual relationship.

That's very reasonable. I don't think that advocating for open honesty in relationships makes you anti-trans at all, for ref.

Glad your partner felt safe to disclose his medical history with you - that's a pretty solid endorsement that you've given off sufficient good vibes to make it clear it wasn't going to be a problem to do so.

Helleofabore · 17/12/2024 15:24

Disclosure
Isn't
Safe.

and

Non
Disclosure
Isn't
Safe.

Yes, there are issues with disclosure. However, there ARE ways to do this before having sex with someone in a safe way.

Unless you wish to argue that you have used emotional coercion to ensure 'safety', ie. only wait until the person you are with has an emotional bond that means they are more vulnerable to emotional manipulation at the time of disclosure, then I don't see how it is safer to have waited.

Oh.... that's right... what a person doesn't know apparently won't hurt them, is that right? So if they never find out and you are no longer a sexual partner, so be it. They never found out. So that is ok, is that right?

Such honesty. How about, there are safety issues that arise from your personal decisions whether you disclose or not. Your framing of the greater danger being in disclosing first is not logical, unless you are counting on never telling someone after the fact or only telling when that person has significant emotional investment in the relationship which is an act of coercion in the case of a person's sex category.

And neither of those alternatives show any care for the other person involved at all. There is a name for that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 15:17

Good question.