CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

As part of that careful and sober discussion of boundaries, a person would disclose the sex they are to the other person. Mutual, co-operative and responsive process and all.

So if intimacy is built up with careful and sober discussion of boundaries, why have we had so many posts about fear from disclosing. There is a lack of consistency across this discussion.

That's good, I guess you won't withhold what sex you are then.

"So you can have access to their body" errr what? I don't know how you prefer to do your intimacy but I certainly prefer to do mine as part of a mutual, cooperative and responsive process of affectionate contact that involves the careful and sober discussion of boundaries.

No it's really, really not. Lying about wearing a condom is a clear violation of bodily autonomy.

Deceiving someone about your sex so you can have access to their body is a clear violation of bodily autonomy.

A man deceiving a straight man or a lesbian that he is female in order that they will have sone form of sexual relations with him is a clear violation too.

Oh absolutely. I find transphobia a real turn-off, alongside homophobia, misogyny, racism and ableism, for example.

I don't tend to find my attraction has much to do with a person's gender presentation or sex assigned at birth. I acknowledge that this isn't universal, though and people are allowed to fancy whoever they fancy.

No it's really, really not. Lying about wearing a condom is a clear violation of bodily autonomy.

I don't know how to communicate to you quite how aptly that quote has applied to my experience of men throughout my life. You think men just slap us on the shoulder and say 'ok bro, no homo' if they find out we're trans? Trans Panic Defence is a well-known term for a reason.

The guidance refers to sex registered at birth, not legal sex.

Also, it is guidance, not a regulation, so is intended to illustrate and illuminate, not provide every possible example of an offence. In the end, it's the court which decides whether sex has been obtained by deception or not, which could depend on how well the case is presented.

There's some wild case law around this, such as the Arab Israeli jailed for having (casual, consensual) sex with a Jewish Israeli woman without mentioning that he was not Jewish.

And in England, this case:

https://www.herts.police.uk/news/hertfordshire/news/2024/may-2024/bishops-stortford-man-jailed-for-sexual-offences/

(The offender was dressed as a woman and the victim was very drunk.)

Also, what @Hoardasurass and @JanesLittleGirl said.

Sex by deception and Spousal veto were two pieces of legislation TRAs were trying to stealthily remove. How nice that the days of sneaking things in are gone. We will eventually remove or neuter the GRA. It was never intended to be used in the manner they are trying, it was simply a mechanism to allow transsexuals to have same sex marriage before civil partnerships.

The short answer is no. Uninformed consent is not consent. A tw with a GRC could offer it as part of their defence or in mitigation but it ain't a get out of jail free card.

It says sex registered at birth so a transwomen with or without a grc is a man under this criminal law.
The supreme crt is about civil law so not relevant to this guidance

Does anyone know if TW with a GRC would be counted as women for the purpose of this legislation? Or will it depend on the Supreme Court ruling?

“The law in question makes it clear that gender reassignment is a valid reason for a person to consider themself to not be the sex they were assigned at birth and that it can be a relevant mitigating factor.”

This is the ultimate clash of rights isn’t it because it’s not just a demand to enter spaces it’s a demand to enter bodies. The law as it stands is a lie and having gender reassignment does not turn a man into a woman.

@ButterflyHatched do you not have sexual preferences? Is there no type you fancy a lot, and type you don’t fancy much at all?

I’m fussy about who I have sex with. I’m allowed to be. Intimacy only happens when and if I’m ready and trust someone. Any sign that they aren’t who they say they are, and it’s off.

It’s a perfectly reasonable expectation. It protects both parties.

I think it works the same as there are hardly any trans people but you've been sharing toilets with them regularly for years. Also, transwomen pass so well that nobody can tell but they live in fear constantly that they will be attacked walking down the street because people can tell they are trans.

When it comes to your biological sex and having a sexual relationship with someone your privacy is not protected infact it the exact opposite by law you must disclose your biological sex

The law is clear when it comes to sexual relationships you must be honest about your biological sex no ifs, buts or maybes.
The equality act protecting trans people from discrimination doesn't give them the right to gain consent for sex by deception.
Btw, it's irrelevant how many passing trans people there are. Each and every one of them must be honest about their biological sex before having sexual relationships with anyone failure to do so makes them a sex offender.
This is no different from a man "stealthing" (funny that you use this same term for deceiving a sexual partner about your sex) and removing a condom which was a condition of consent

You could leave off the last four words from that post and it would be applicable to everyone, especially women.

After all, women are always vulnerable when having sex with men, given they are physically stronger. Even when you have enthusiastically consented to a sexual encounter, there’s always the risk with a new partner that they will push your boundaries try and coerce/force into a particular act that you don’t want to do. You also have to trust they will stop if you ask.

What’s the saying again? Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them.

“Dangerous situation” @ButterflyHatched ? You have no fucking idea.

@ButterflyHatched just want to confirm, trans people are marginalised, but also most people are accepting of trans, but also trans are at high risk of danger from someone they want to have sex with, finding out they're trans?

What a complicated existence!

Any evidence to support your claim that trans people are beaten up in this country for telling a potential partner they're trans, or was that more of a 'trust me bro' statement?

Nice of Jess, a TRA and recent law graduate, to put it so unequivocally and clearly.

This 'legal researcher' says the guidance means:

'the CPS has decided that a trans person's failure to disclose their birth sex to their sexual partner may be sufficient to amount to deception which would vitiate consent.'

and

'...trans people would be required to disclose their sex as registered at birth before even engaging in a first kiss.'

So. Best be honest about your sex and not try to deceive people before engaging in sexual activity.

https://bsky.app/profile/jessothomson.bsky.social/post/3ldjew5rycx2t

yourhairiswinterfire · Today 20:29

..rather than just simply heterosexual men who don't want to have sex with other males.

Not so much as Occam's Razor as Occam's Game of Thrones throne.

It gets thornier when they like the idea of themselves being progressive but are still dealing with internalised homophobia/transphobia and channel that into trans-hostile ideology.

In just 6 pages, you've insisted they must be homophobic, transphobic/anti-trans, bigots, disgusted by minorities, abusive, not normal, anti-trans culture warriors, raging, discriminatory, dangerous, ideologists, hostile, deeply insecure, unstable, suffering from internalised homo/transphobia, feel that their masculinity is threatened...

...rather than just simply heterosexual men who don't want to have sex with other males.

It's quite odd that you're complaining of others 'pretending to be progressive' when you're here posting that you think people should 'reflect' on their 'ideological' sexual orientation, and seem very upset that the law protects people if they're the victim of a sexual offence.

“in my experience at least, most normal people don't hold raging anti-trans views anymore,”

Weren’t we in the midst of a trans genocide last week? It’s great to see that things can improve so rapidly.