CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

No, I don't think it's inherently transphobic to say there's an embodied component of womanhood.

That's certainly how I understand it, but I wouldn't stop being a woman if my neurological tissue was isolated from the rest of my body and migrated to a synaptic scaffold inside a life support system - and I don't think any other woman would either.

The pattern of information that makes up the person I grew into is one that self-classifies as 'woman'.

Sure.

Transphobia is, broadly, throwing homophobia and misogyny in a blender to make a particularly virulent bigotry smoothie and up until the mid 00's or so most people didn't even make a distinction. Unsurprisingly I was paying quite close attention - I didn't have the luxury of ignorance.

I have a question but no expectations of an honest answer from BH.

If someone said to you "I believe that being a woman relates, in some way, to having a female body" is that a transphobic belief or not?

Just that, not a different thing with different words. That sentiment itself - that a female body and the state of "being a woman" have any connection at all.

You're talking about male violence again, ButterflyHatched, may I suggest that you find a forum which is 90something% male and challenge them with these accounts of male violence, and encourage them to do something about their behaviour.

While you're there, you could ask them to be nicer to transwomen in men's toilets, so they could feel safe there, and that way women's toilets could be kept as single-sex spaces.

Hahaha

I have to say, this thread keeps reminding me of the IT crowd episode where Douglas mishears and thinks April is from Iran.

Isn't it convenient to use something that's LGB and pretend it was actually the T. I think we've come across that before...

So it was actually about homophobia? Nothing to do with "trans" which only applied to a tiny number of people, even fewer of whom could successfully pass as the opposite sex.

So ubiquitous was it once that it gained a pair of UK-specific names: the 'Portsmouth Defence' and the 'Guardsman's Defence' and until shockingly recently it would generally still be assumed that any LGBT murder victim was killed because of it.

I find it improbable that you don't know this - I'm fairly confident that you're older than me and it was just a fact of life for LGBT people when I was growing up.

Oh I get it, but I’m wondering whether there’s an extra element horror at having sex with the wrong kind of person if you’ve never had, imagined, or desired sex with that kind of person.

I think so, and I think most bisexuals understand that people do, but some "pansexual" people I've encountered, particularly younger people who've grown up with "queer" everything bring their social norm, don't appear to. Which obviously doesn't mean a bisexual person can't be equally violated by someone deceiving them about their sex, just that they don't necessarily feel the same natural repulsion (for want of a better word) to having sex against their orientation as a gay or straight person.

I’ve just had a thought.

Maybe Butters doesn’t want to go to the trans-friendly places where they could be completely open about their sex, or to use appropriate dating apps, because that would be invalidating and because it wouldn’t be necessary for actual women.

Those poor women who thought they were in relationships with men who turned out to be undercover coppers.

And no criminal charges brought in those cases for reasons I cannot comprehend. State sanctioned sexual violation of women and not one officer has faced justice afaik.

If only we lived in a world where there were LGBT friendly pubs and clubs in all towns and cities, advertising their inclusivity with rainbow flags everywhere, dating apps that accommodate all forms of identity before you even see a photo of a potential sex partner and websites and social media where LGBT people and allies can meet and find enthusiastic potential partners, eh?

🤔

Oh I get it, but I’m wondering whether there’s an extra element horror at having sex with the wrong kind of person if you’ve never had, imagined, or desired sex with that kind of person.

Lesbians don’t seem offended I don’t view them as potential partners.
It wouldn’t cross my mind to be offended that gay men don’t fancy me.

Though to be honest I really don’t see why it’s an issue for anyone to not fancy anyone else. When you are at your most vulnerable, it really really matters who you are with.

Those poor women who thought they were in relationships with men who turned out to be undercover coppers.

Most bisexual people still want to know what sex a potential partner is.

It's not just about attraction; there is also risk assessment involved, pregnancy, etc

So you’re bisexual. That may explain why you don’t understand other people’s horror at having sex with the wrong kind of person.

I wouldn’t be hanging out with transphobes, racist, homophobes etc long enough to get to the sex stage.

Neither do I hang around with men much, outside of a work or activity context. Except the one I’m married to and our kids, that is.

Particularly when the argument is <checks post from Monday> "the law says I'm only allowed to have sex if I wear a fake moustache."

If that is a belief held as genuinely as the belief that they are a woman then I think it is clear why we shouldn't permit sex by deception in order to accommodate it.

It can't just be GC women that find deliberate dishonesty quite unpleasant?

I doubt a campaign would be very successful if the arguments we’re seeing here were used.

I can’t imagine there’s a snappy slogan that wins over hearts and minds if you go around equating not wanting to have sex with someone of the same sex as you with violent transphobia.

Again, I fail to see the similarity with other civil rights movements.

Yes, perhaps an argument that men may understand, too.

The argument that trans people have a right to deceive in order to access sex is a bold one.

I do have 1 question that you might answer though, why do you believe that your want to have sex with someone is more important than their right to give informed consent?

That’s an excellent question. If you don’t feel safe enough to be honest with someone about your sex, don’t have sex with them.

Yes, I'm not seeing a campaign to repeal sex by deception on the grounds of biological sex is going to win the hearts and minds of the country.

Almost everyone wants to know the biological sex of the person they're considering entering into a sexual relationship with. Most people would use it as probably the first criteria, in fact.

Hence the law on deception.

Trans Panic Defence is a well-known term for a reason.

It's not well known, I've never heard it before. Like Hoardasaurus, I'd like to see a few British examples of it.

Of course, I realise that the request will go forever unanswered.

So is lying about your sex it's exactly the same thing they are both gaining sex by deception. It's the same law, crime and result.
The guidance and law is clear both are predatory sex offenders.
I would say that if you don't like the law campaign to change it but the trans rights movement tried that and the resounding public response was no rape by deception is rape and claiming a special identity doesn't change that fact.

Please name 1 UK case where a man or woman has successfully used "trans panic" as a defence against assault or attempted murder/murder.
We both know that you won't answer my question @ButterflyHatched because it's not a recognised legal defence in the UK nor is gay panic, but I'm sure that you'll keep trying to claim it is just as you keep claiming that the equality act and or a grc allows you (general you) to sexually assault people by gaining sex by deception.
I do have 1 question that you might answer though, why do you believe that your want to have sex with someone is more important than their right to give informed consent?