CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

Cross posted with hoardasaurass.

And hey, imagine that transplanted brain also needs a new skull that has been created just to fit that brain so that the brain doesn’t have to be shaved and completely reconfigured to go into that body’s skull. But gosh…. that newly AI grown skull is …. Da da da da! Male shaped to fit a male shaped brain!!!

Gosh!!!

Doesn’t reality suck!

You are now showing your complete lack of knowledge about biology, medicine and science.
1, a male brain is to large to physically fit in a female skull.
2, a male brain is incapable of regulating not only the hormones of a female body but any of the female only bodily functions such as pregnancy.
3, After decades of failed attempts we are no closer now than in the 1980s to reconnecting and repairing nerves
4, nobody is anywhere near growing a functional organ let alone one viable for transportation in animal trials let alone human trials
5, transplanting organs is completely different from transplanting a brain and nervous system.

Your sci-fi bs has no barring on the current discussion about whether transpeople should be allowed to gain consent to sexual relations by lieing about their biological sex. As such the discussion about obtaining sex by deception can continue without your further derailment perfectly well thanks for the entertainment though

My thought is that now that the Intersex argument is coming to a close, the Wrong Brain argument rises.

Which is fine in a philosophy class but this is the law, and reality.

Any person who pretends they are the opposite sex in order to access sex with someone who would not give their consent if they knew the sex of the person. That is what this law is about.

I think there is a group in society who will grasp onto any thread of a chance that technology will produce that which they desperately want.

A brain transplant into an opposite sex body is not going to happen in ‘my lifetime’ and if any medical practitioner is telling people this, they need to be never allowed to act as a clinician again. This is extremely unethical to lead people to believe this is even a possibility.

You first asked whether it would make you a man, or a woman. You then said that your question was 'whether you would be male'.

Is 'man' interchangeable with 'male', butters?

Can you set out specifically - no room for ambiguity -what you consider a man or woman to be. What is unique to a man that no woman has (or vice versa)? Is it a body type, or is it something else?

If you're asking which word applies, you need to tell us what you say they mean.

I would really like to know this too.

The problem with the emoji set being used is that people who cannot understand sarcasm or choose not to will believe it is rewarding their behaviour and therefore will continue to post in that way.

No has a brain transplant. No one has had a brain transplant or will have a brain transplant.

It is a weak attempt to leverage in ‘wrong body’ and has nothing to do with not disclosing the sex your (general you) body is before having sex with someone.

Whoever initially devised the brain transplant exercise for this purpose obviously thinks this is a clever exercise, but it is not. This is just another failed analogy. Just like being born in Dudley and moving to Berwick. Just like being female is supposedly “ a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex.” These don’t work because they are fatally flawed from the outset.

No one has had a brain transplant.

And what is the only true statement is that any male person can only ever be a male person. They are male in every cell of their body. If they claim to live like are a female person, they are only ever living as their personal conceptualisation of how they believe a female person should or would live.

They live their life navigating the world with a male body and dealing with that body and how society deals with that body. If they make extreme body modifications it is still a male body, just with extreme body modifications. Not a female body. They don’t navigate the world with a female body, only with a male body with extreme body modifications.

A cavity that has been created in a male pubic region is not a vagina. It doesn’t have any role except to insert objects into. It doesn’t even act ‘just like a vagina’. It never has and it never will. It is not a vagina despite some people claiming that it is.

Someone making extreme body modifications to their body does not give that person any right to not disclose their sex to a potential sex partner. A decision which will negate the consent of that partner and mean the sex is not consensual. Because every person has a valid and reasonable expectation to know the sex of the person they are about to have sex with.

No brain transplants. There are No wrong bodies. A modified body is always a modified body. A male person has always interpreted life as a person with a male body their entire life. Even after extreme body modifications.

The logic can never be anything else.

Yes, of course.

I think it's an extremely important definitional point for the discussion at hand and I don't think we can proceed without it.

Do you, indeed.

Luckily this board has taught us that 'no' is a complete sentence.

What are Mumsnet guidelines on using the laughing reaction when someone has said something really, really, REALLY fucking stupid?

is that Not In The Spirit or is it ok?

I don't want a 10000000 word essay (please spare me). I want to know if you consider yourself to be male if your brain, with appropriate compatibility and life support modifications to sustain stable long-term bodily function, is in a phenotypically male body.

A brain transplant (which is never going to happen) = /= SRS or whatever you say is your history at any given moment.

Not disclosing your sex to a potential sexual partner does = sex by deception.

Not a difficult concept or one that requires a 10000000 word essay for most people who don't want to sexually assault someone.

This is literally a thread about the legality of embodied existence in people with complex external presentation that may not match that usually expected of their birth sex. I don't see how you can get more relevant?

I think it's an extremely important definitional point for the discussion at hand and I don't think we can proceed without it.

Has got fuck all to do with sex by deception Butters.

Start your own thread. Maybe try a male based forum and ask some other chaps what they think.

Ok so we've established that it could be dangerous without appropriate interfaces to ensure homeostatic equilibrium is maintained over long periods, just like the entire concept is fanciful with today's technology to begin with.

However, with AI-powered autosurgery and lab-grown organs already becoming a reality, we might be closer to this kind of scenario than you might expect.

You may be having these conversations about real people within your lifetime.

So, would that make you a man

Or a woman?

I think it's an extremely important definitional point for the discussion at hand and I don't think we can proceed without it.

An astute comment.

So you'd use male-only facilities and stay out of women's spaces?

Getting Deja vu, again.
Have clownfish been mentioned yet?

Sexual racism. Report for reprogramming.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/if-lesbian-prefers-same-sex-dates-thats-not-bigotry-desire-personal-thing

This thread has been very interesting. On one hand there is a view that any deception vitiates (lovely word) consent. On the other hand there is a view that deception as to sex should be acceptable because otherwise there is a risk of rejection (withdrawal of consent). The second hand has been dressed up in many ways to try to make it acceptable but I find myself thinking "Andrew Tate; Incel; ""Your body, my choice""." Not a good look. Sorry, not buying it.

I don't understand how there would be any benefit to trans people obtaining sex by deception if they wanted a long term relationship. Even someone who passes when dressed must have some scars and it must very quickly become obvious in any kind of long term relationship.

The only time I've ever seen a trans person who transitioned so early they could completely pass talking about it, like Butterfly hatched, was Jazz (on I am Jazz). My understanding of Jazz's situation is that not enough penile tissue developed to create the neo-vagina, so there were a lot more surgical problems than normal, as well as post-op complications. Even when enough tissue is used the hole created is not self lubricating, needs regular dilation and wouldn't have the nerve endings and muscles to create anything resembling a female orgasm. Surely it feels/ looks a bit different??

I'm not sure how it would work for more than the briefest of flings. Assuming the sexual partner didn't realise at the time, I can't see how it would be positive if real sex was discussed openly several sexual encounters down the line.

This. If one or more posters don't agree then agitate to get the guidance changed. Good luck with that.

The whataboutery of brain transplants is just that... whataboutery that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand or to the discussion on any male person over about 8 years old having access to the female single sex spaces.

What if a trans person outs themself to a prospective shag and the prospective shag says “oh, ok, not my thing- sorry, hope you have a nice life.” Is that still transphobic bigotry?