CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

The Spock's brain one is just called Spock's Brain, I was getting confused with the movie title. In SB the women and the men dress like this, respectively. Such a good thing that no-one would apply such regressive stereotypes now, 60 years on.

The only ‘conversations’ I have ever had or seen about the ludicrous abstract kind of stuff that this poster is persisting with, is by men with autistic traits. It’s not a conversation with two-way dialogue that they listened to - more a fantastical lecture where they got increasingly excited feeding off their own voice. It reminds me a bit like Elon Musk and his powered sub he wanted to experiment with in Thailand when everyone else was concentrating on reality - and the time limited emergency of getting people out.

Elon also has grand ideas of experimenting with brains and AI. It’s the ultimate power and control fantasy.

Meanwhile, in reality…..

There have been a lot of posts for me to catch up on!

It all appears to revolve around one person's desire to lie to people despite the law.

Why can't you just be honest Butters?

Not to mention we can use the urinal and avoid the queue....

I know everyone is sick to death of the brain transplant hypothetical, but I'm going to answer this.

In the unlikely event that I wake up tomorrow with my mind (formed in an XX brain housed for many years in an XX body) magically transplanted into a normal XY body and retaining its character and memories, here is what I would do and not do:

I would not alter my ID from M to F, because its purpose - of enabling others to identify me by looking at me - would be undermined.

I would not throw a hissy fit if people debated publicly whether I was 'really' a man or a woman - it's an interesting question, but maybe has no definitive answer. So what?

I would not alter my body with drugs and surgery, because I have a healthy body already and don't want to damage it.

I would not use women's single-sex spaces, shortlists etc, because I have a male body, with the privilege that goes with it, and I would want to avoid harming or frightening women.

I would be open about my 'condition' with potential sexual partners, in case it would affect how they feel.

Butterfly, are your answers the opposite of mine? If so, why?

This debate isn't even about men thinking they're women, the examples given were of females pretending to be male and using dildos to perform penetrative sex. Of course there are issues around males pretending to be female to have sex with men.

But not sure why we are getting wrapped up about definitions of being a woman (if a man's brain is transplanted and other science fiction nonsense), it is about either sex pretending to be the opposite and engaging in sexual activity under false pretences.

If a trans woman has sex with a man without disclosing trans status, do you think there's going to be a conversation about theoretical brain transplants that will calm the angry man down?

The reality show There's Something About Miriam went down this route and it didn't end well for anyone.

But I won't be solemnly discussing the viability of daft 1960s Sci Fi storylines.

The happy outcome of the last chunk of this discussion (for me) has been realising it's at least ten years since I watched Star Trek TOS, and I plan to revisit it all, Turnabout Intruder - the Janice Lester shaped body and the Jim Kirk shaped body shouting 'I am the Captain' at each other - In Search of Spock's Brain - where it has to be put back where it should be after being removed by women wearing excellent examples of William Ware Theiss's costumes (designed on what Wikipedia describes as what came to be called the "Theiss Titillation Theory": "The sexiness of an outfit is directly proportional to the perceived possibility that a vital piece of it might fall off." ) and all.

So thanks for that. Nothing to do with thread topic, but something to look forward to in the new year.

Because signal, there is a ‘male’ brain and a ‘female’ brain and of course, a ‘female’ brain goes to the female toilet and acts all ‘female’ like.

I expect if you found yourself victim of a forced brain transplant or opting to have one, you'd have much bigger issues to deal with than identity issues.

I would be really interested to read studies about the impact war, famine, natural disasters etc have on gender distress. I imagine survival instinct would supersede it- but maybe not.

Such a bizarre question to ask. Does BH assume we would all attempt to disguise our new male bodies squeezing ourselves into poorly fitted clothing designed for women and force our way into women’s spaces? Why would we do that when we know how uncomfortable it would make the women using those spaces.

And of course, this type of whataboutery is just another foray to the boundaries. It is just another type of wheedling.

It is a discovery foray to work out just where the acceptable line is to use that in the future.

“Whatabout if I did this, would I be a woman? Whatabout if I did this other thing, would I be a woman? Whatabout if I did this impossible thing, would I be a woman? Whatabout if I use this pseudoscientific theory? Whatabout if I leverage in this group of people that I don’t belong to? I know I can convince you that I am a woman too, despite being a male person.”

Wheedle, wheedle, wheedle.

The answer is always ‘no male can ever be a female person no matter what extreme body modification that male person has done’.

If a brain from a female body was transplanted into a male body you would literally have a brain from a female body (presumably with the consciousness also transplanted) in a male body. How does this in any way relate to trans women who have their own male brain in their own male body.

If this impossible situation happened to me there is no way I would attempt to enter female spaces because I would be acutely aware of how uncomfortable it would make the women in those spaces. I’m also fairly certain I would not attempt to turn my new male body into a facsimile of a female body.

There is a common and repeated pattern of attempted obfuscation. Whether it's 'no debate', failing to define terms, conflating identity issues with DSDs, or drawing on what the future might bring - none of these address the issues at hand. Sex is material and matters in life and law.

Slowly, far too slowly, TRAs are running out of road.

And you can't use science fiction to argue against issues of the present day.

In my non medical opinion a brain transplant is much less likely that a complete head transplant. All the connections neatly bundled together in the neck, rather than scooping all manner of stuff out of a skull. In addition 4 major senses wouldn't need re-wiring 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, and a tongue. Whether the neck is cut above the adam's apple or below would become the next point of fantasy to argue over.
It's wierd that law in existence right now is being debated by examples of something humanity may never achieve. Also the morals and ethics of such procedures havn't got a mention here at all. It's possible that in this magic future that the law has something to say on this matter too. It's possible that even with the magic brain transplant the law could still consider it sex by deception if the other party is uninformed.

If you are trans, you should be up-front about it to potential romantic partners, otherwise it is deceptive.

And I believe trans status should be disclosed before any body-to-body contact (eg kissing, hugging) this is long before sexual intercourse.

Let alone keeping the brain and connective tissue viable for the length of time to reconnect those billions of neurons, either connect a skull to fit the brain or to have a brain survive reconditioning to fit a new skull as well!

And to be told it could happen in our lifetime shows a complete dedication to being pseudoscience above reality. It shows just how far someone will go to try to support their philosophical beliefs with 'science'.

It is like the implanted uterus discussion but much worse consequences.

The implanted uterus relies on a person being ignorant of all the processing and regulation that is done by the different body systems to create a life in a female body. To make that uterus work requires connectivity that will never occur in a male person - so a foetus becomes a 'lamb in a bag' effectively. And what parent wants that option for another human being to start development and continue any development as a vanity experiment. The 'vanity' part referring to both the parent's and the medical team's actions.

But the 'it's going to happen!' gotchas continue to pour in on that discussion. Now it is seems it is 'brain transplants'.

Oh, wacky. I read that wrong.

Brain transplants....oh boy!

Quite.

Throwing everything bar the kitchen sink in to the mix, levels of desperation so immense we now have completely ludicrous wacky sci-fi scenarios and all for what? To argue that one specific cohort of people should be exempt and above the Law that applies to everyone else, that is what is being demanded.

Brain transplants....oh boy!

There is hope that advancements in tissue engineering will lead to repaired/regenerated brain tissue, but no neuroscientist is expecting people to survive having their spinal cord severed (to remove/their brain) let alone being able to reconnect billions of neurons. Bonkers!

"It always comes down to claims of being unsafe, but when safety is provided (which is fair and right) it’s not good enough. Because there’s still an acknowledgment that your birth sex has relevance. And some people don’t seem happy with that.'

This is very apparent, isn't it?

And also there is this immediate claim for 'safety' while trying to distract from the fact that option that is being proposed is also 'unsafe', but that is an inconvenient lack of safety that also doesn't fit the narrative that they wish to maintain focus on.

Like 'disclosing is unsafe'.... Well, yes.... but 'not disclosing is unsafe' as well. Yet that fact is vitally inconvenient to the narrative that requires someone to be seen as a victim.

I couldn't agree more @ApocalipstickNow.

I think there’s a group in society who would prefer to believe in a sci fi fantasy world of lab grown bodies and downloadable brains rather than a society where men need to make any effort to treat other human beings with respect.

I know I keep banging on about this, but there’s so much energy poured into demonising women, whilst nothing is put into addressing things that would make trans people’s lives better- improved relations with police so transphobic assaults are taken seriously (we may be there with that one), a judicial system that punishes those who assault trans people, a general acceptance that that difference should not provoke violence etc- all things I would like to see for women btw. These are the things that have been pushed for in other civil rights movements- hard work, yes, we’re not there yet but things have improved.

Yet none of this is wanted by a cohort of activists who do not want acceptance as being trans but acceptance as the opposite sex. Which is not going to happen across the board.

It always comes down to claims of being unsafe, but when safety is provided (which is fair and right) it’s not good enough. Because there’s still an acknowledgment that your birth sex has relevance. And some people don’t seem happy with that.

Turn your attention to educating men rather than alienating women who should have been supportive but have now grown tired of the bullying.