CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

we cannot be sexually active while assimilating

Yes you can. So long as your partners consent, and that consent is freely given, and fully informed. That's all.

I was asked by Helleofabore a couple of weeks ago to list, in my own words, rights trans people were losing in the UK

I somewhat went beyond the original scope of that request and gave a list of ways we are currently discriminated against alongside current modes of attack to remove existing rights.

One of them was regarding 'sex by deception' legislation.

About a week later, the CPS issued a clarification that removed some of the ambiguity in the law about people who have undergone gender reassignment. I was expecting that they might be seeking to tighten the awkward case law precedents up and remove the vector by which trans people can (as is very common for marginalised groups when interacting with badly written laws) be disproportionately harmed in practice.

Instead, the CPS has seen fit to release guidance that actually makes it easier to harm trans people, and expressly provided listed examples.

It is now extremely difficult, for example, to see a scenario where (I know we don't like latin prefixes here)-passing trans women who are sexual assault survivors will be able to successfully raise a case against the men who abused them.

The law now expressly protects non-trans people who abuse trans people they don't know (or 'don't know') are transgender. It pretty much provides a roadmap for men to get away with raping us by raising counter-claims.

I'm a sexually active healthy adult and have had many partners over the years since having surgery (and some before that, though honestly that was a very long time ago and I was not a psychologically healthy person at all back due to absolutely crushing sex dysphoria so I can't imagine it was a particularly enjoyable or relaxing experience for those involved).

Since surgery, my transness just hasn't really been a relevant factor in most practical situations. I wouldn't dream of not telling someone in a sexual scenario where it would be relevant for practical physical safety reasons, and disclosure is generally a good idea in order to be able to communicate your needs and be on the same wavelength with a partner invested in you both having a good time, but (without getting too crude) I certainly haven't run into any physical difficulties there.

Given the absolute state of the world right now and the horrifying, ongoing nightmarish revelations coming out of France, the timing of the release of these amended guidelines feels extremely pointed. How can you possibly raise legitimate concerns about badly written laws that embolden rapists and perpetuate a notion that trans women - who are enormously vulnerable to abuse and incredibly unlikely to ever see justice in the courts for it - are inherently deceitful and predatory and undeserving of protection?

It may in this case just be an unfortunate accident but it is difficult not to see it in context as part of a slyly executed ongoing strategic ultimatum directed toward all trans people - especially trans women.

We must choose between safety and sexuality. We must be cloistered, guarded asexual saints untouched by worldly sin, or visible and marked as the promiscuous degenerate sex-demons that conservative media has never stopped portraying us as.

The most fiercely fought points of intense focus over the last few years are almost laser-guidedly directed toward making it practically impossible for us to assimilate into society.

If nobody is practically able to assimilate then many anti-trans attacks on our rights become much easier to justify.

Remove routes for those of us with acute, early, persistent dysphoria to actualise that assimilation; make it so that we cannot be sexually active while assimilating; remove our ability to protect ourselves from procedural breaches of privacy.

If it isn't always an active, strategic effort then it certainly looks like one, and is serving the goals of one.

This is why I give a shit. Even if it doesn't end up practically affecting me. I am not blind to what is happening here, and what has now been set in motion.

I do not experience all the things that all other women experience, but anyone who knows me would find the notion that I am to be classified as a man to be completely ridiculous.

Yet you have zero understanding of and no affinity for women at all. Quite the opposite.

When it comes to their needs, rights, protections and lives, you are happy to dismiss it all to the point of jeopardy.

There are other men on this thread with way more understanding of women in general and our issues in particular.

Your constant and often mentioned need for validation also gives the lie to the notion that classifying you as a man is ridiculous. Women don't need other people to keep calling them women.

This would be the logical approach.

But often people aren't logical. Aiming to fool everyone, all the time, for all purposes, can't and doesn't work. It's impossible.

Obviously, changing sex is itself impossible.

Perhaps the impossibility of it is at least part of the attraction. Chasing the impossible dream means not ever having to face reality.

The word compassion has been deployed frequently.

Many of us have had these same discussion progressions with this poster over years. They all go exactly the same way.

Compassion. Sympathy. These get shown, they get lapped up because that is what is identified as being the key to find that point to then use. It is abusive in its deployment after you recognise the pattern.

And it is never shown towards female people from the posters who form this group of male people.

It is all very clear from the dismissal and ignorance around the brutality of the treatments being advocated for on the female body, the emotionally manipulative rejection of the need for female single sex spaces and opportunity. These male people claim to be female but they are misogynists to the very core because of their demands. They are likely misogynist in other ways too.

Empathy? Yes, we have it to give. But we can be empathetic without giving in to the emotional manipulation that is poured out on these threads. The catastrophising, the fallacies, the outright falsehoods, the abuse, the disconnected thinking, inconsistencies and the distortions.

And all because why? Because some people demand that their philosophical belief is prioritised above material reality.

I know that you aimed this post at Helle, but I want to make it quite clear that I have a lot of compassion for people with gender dysphoria/trans identified people/victims of what is IMO medical negligence.

I have seen the photos of Kathy Rumer's 'work' and that of her fellow SRS sugeons, I have listened to people with daughters with ROGD, I have spoken to transwomen, I have read/watched the testimonials of detransitioners, I read about Griffin's early death and on and on. I know how much these people have been let down by the lies, hugboxes, true believers, medical negligence and unrealistic expectations of affirmation only approaches.

People have been set on a path of swimming from one island to a second island. They were never told that reaching that second island was actually impossible. Some will get closer than others, but none will reach the shore. As they swim, some find that they are struggling to not drown. These people sometimes grab onto anything to keep themslves from drowning. However, they just pull what they have grabbed down with them.

When trans identified people, advocate for childhood transition, these are the drowning people grabbing onto others and bringing them down into the depths with them.

No child should be denied a natural puberty and full development into an adult.
Those who advocate for childhood transition are part of a huge medical scandal. They do not deserve compassion on this issue.

@ButterflyHatched anyone who knows me would find the notion that I am to be classified as a man to be completely ridiculous.

Presumably that is because you are a very convincing counterfeit. In what other sphere would this be a respectable argument? 'I'm not guilty m'lud, because the fake Rolexes were so good, everyone thought they were real ones.'

Ironically, you seem more hung up on 'classification' than I am. I'm quite happy for you to be classified as a man, only when it matters. Medical treatment, data collection, sports, situations of intimacy or vulnerability etc.

Why is it important to you to be seen as a woman rather than a male transsexual (as some transwomen describe themselves)? I know it's not what you want, but how many people get everything they want?

Don't let the best be the enemy of the good. If you present female, people will interact with you accordingly anyway. And if you are at the same time honest about your actual sex (and act accordingly), we might stop getting so aerated about it.

All the drugs that Butters has taken and all the surgery he's had don't alter the fact that he's a man. He was born a man, will die a man and deep down he knows that to be true which is why he despises women as he knows that's something he can never be.

Expecting the whole world to change to fit your disordered view of yourself isn't healthy or respectful. It's that sense of self importance that allows Butters to view anyone else's wants or needs to be ignored unless it serves Butters. That's why sex by deception isn't seen as bad as the other party consenting is only valid if playing by Butters' rules. Someone who thinks transwomen are women is allowed informed consent but the vast majority of the world isn't.

That's bringing the law back to what matters: sex. And acknowledging that 'gender identity' is, for most matters, irrelevant and meaningless.

Why has this thread become all about one person again?

Tedious.

Anyway. I'd missed the CPS updated the title of the guidance as 'sex by deception re sex'. Not 'gender'.

That's good.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/prosecutors-publish-updated-deception-sex-guidance

'The CPS has updated the title of the guidance to more accurately reflect that this part of the law is based on a person’s sex, rather than gender identity.'

Yes - and the answers still NO - no matter how much they emote, whine, moan, complain or manipulate.
No men in women's spaces, sport, awards or groups.

And a big fat NO to men (and women) transitioning children. They can FOTTFSOFATFOSM and leave children alone.

To bring this back to the thread topic: sex by deception. Upthread, Helle said that "The fact remains that those male people are male. There is no ‘nuance’ to be discussed".

A male with a feminised body (due to blocked puberty, cross-sex homones and/or surgery) is still male. A female with a masculinised body, due to those things, is still female. Helle is correct. Human beings cannot change sex. If they have disguised their sex through the modifications, they need to be truthful about their actual sex before entering into physical relations with someone else.

Why is 'being honest' such a difficult concept for some people?

I see Butters has brought up compassion again.

Defined in this instance as 'don't point out reality'.

Don't point out that women's single sex spaces cease to exist if a male (however modified and sad) uses them.

Don't point out that someone who agreed to have sex with a woman did not consent to sex with a male, however modified, and has therefore been subjected to rape by deception.

Don't point out that a modified male's feelings of sadness on having to admit reality do not translate to a right to rape by deception.

We will go round and round on this forever, and Butters will avoid, deflect, portray statements of fact as threats of genocide until the thread runs out. Because Butters will continue doing what Butters wants and will never admit that Butters doesn't give a flying fuck about the rights of others.

It's tedious and pointless.

Like others have said, if you want a thread all about you, go and start one.

If you don’t like people pointing out the manipulative nature of your posts, try posting without using those tactics. YOU desperately want there to be ‘nuance’, you have built a life around needing that nuance because of a decision you made.

There is no nuance around the discussion of single sex space and whether someone should disclose their sex before having sex, because people cannot change sex despite all the modifications, all the pseudoscientific theories, all the thought exercises in the world.

But do you generally see the similarities?

My cousin was raised by a black woman so a lot of her inner self is black. Her outer body doesn’t reflect that inner self but because of that juxtaposition, she can’t just decide that she’s black inside so that’s all that matters.

She has to consider the lived experience of those like myself who have been perceived since birth as black. She has to respect how they feel about her occupying space in places meant for them.

I would suggest that men should take a similar stance when transitioning into living as a woman.

The exact same parallels apply to males talking about being a woman.

There are only a maximum of 1000 posts allowed on one thread...

<Applause>

Why don’t you make your own thread about yourself then? This one was about sex by deception. Not about you.

For @ButterflyHatched I think you've made the point that you have no interest in sexual or romantic relationships, so what made you come onto a thread about sex by deception (via the hiding of physiological sex)?

Surely this won't affect you? Do you think this law will have some other negative effect for you? Or this it question you personally beliefs around gender identity and that the law doesn't see it the same way you do?

@Helleofabore There is no ‘nuance’ to be discussed

Ok, good talk. You have made your refusal to acknowledge even the smallest hint of space for compassion within your ideology extremely clear.

I'd quite like to keep discussing with people who are interested in engaging, if that's acceptable to you?

@ButterflyHatched I do not experience all the things that all other women experience, but anyone who knows me would find the notion that I am to be classified as a man to be completely ridiculous.

"All other women" is a phrase you like to repeat, post after post. Do you seriously think posters on here don't notice this sleight of language? There are no "other women" in your case.

There are countless reasons why anyone who knows you might act towards you in the way they do. You do not know what they are thinking, you are not in their heads, you do not know how they truly perceive you. You know only how you hope they perceive you.

Yes, I have heard of this where professionals aren't interested until the magic words of "gender dysphoria" are mentioned.

We know of the massive scale of autistic children being caught up in this, and reading some of the messages here (and I'm not professional) I feel a strong sense of autism coming through and that gender transition has masked the real problems.

There is an obsession with categorisation, obsession with particular works of fiction, lack of empathy, failure to understand differing opinions etc.

I do also wonder whether a lot of this Incel business is actually autism related too, because many of the themes seem similar.

“By 2016 various different teams had, however, seemingly found a surprising weight of evidence that there are particular (pre-CSH treatment) morphologies for the brains of at least some people reporting a transgender identity from an early age.”

Which, I don’t believe were compared to people of the same sex with the same set of co-morbidities to see if it was specifically gender dysphoria that made those changes.

Just like other research where they never used a control of other male people on the same drug regimes and interests.

I think that's an extremely complex question that I have no place having an ill-informed 'take' on - it isn't my place to serve as arbiter there especially when the intersections of identity and privilege are extremely thorny.

Viewed solely from a lens of privilege within a white hegemonic society - no.