CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

Dead?

There's been a lot of focus on hypothetical situations involving men, gay straight and trans, in this discussion, when we already have real-life proof of lesbians being put under pressure to have sex with men who identify as women and also as lesbians - the horrible 'Cotton Ceiling' trope.
And we already have real-life reports of lesbians finding themselves in the kind of situation ButterflyHatched worries about for transwomen - realising late in the day that the person they've hooked up with is not the sex they thought.

In the case of lesbians, the threat of violence is more likely to come from the other side, from the 'deceiver' rather than the 'deceived', so to speak.

I must admit I'm still trying to get my head around a transman attracted to a biological man, WaterThyme.... I think I'd need a flowchart or a diagram or something ... a woman who identifies as and presents as a man, wants to have sex with a biological male..?
So this is the equivalent of men who identify as women and then want to have sex with biological women?

I have read this thread horrified that Butters can have such visceral fear of men and still have no empathy for the situation of the sex Butters identifies as and their need to protect themselves from the male sex.

I am also curious as to the need for honesty in intimate relationships where transmen are concerned. If a transman is attracted to a biological man would they act as Butters recommends and try to pass without disclosing their natal sex? I would have thought that was unlikely to succeed and potentially dangerous. It would seem to me that Butters is taking advantage of a one way street only likely to be available to transwomen.

I am a natal woman though and cannot speak for gay men. Apart from saying that I think that they are as deserving of honesty as anyone else.

Second this!

The Trade Descriptions Act 1968 (c. 29) is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which prevents manufacturers, retailers or service industry providers from misleading consumers as to what they are spending their money on.

I want a product that is nut free, no hidden nuts, not products with the nuts removed, a product that never had nuts in the first place.

Please don’t try and sell me a nut free product with no warning that nuts may have been present in the manufacturing process.

Thank you.

Excellently put! Can I just add that anyone who thinks 'stealthing' has any place in a healthy sexual relationship is utterly deluded. I feel sick that people are advising others to be sexually abusive in this way.

They are angry because they have just discovered that the other person's attitude to them is "you are fit for a fuck but not fit to be worthy of my honesty and candour or to be allowed to make fully informed decisions about this relationship."
So not transphobic, no. Just jerkphobic.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/10/woman-gemma-watts-posed-boy-sexually-assault-girls-police

TBH this case (and the very rare but similar ones involving a situation where someone has used their trans identity to abuse vulnerable girls) did not need this new law to prosecute.

It definitely would have been an added charge but it was the systemic or prolific nature of the abuse that resulted in their prosecution .

In a more common (drunken/ casual/ romantic) situation, I don’t see how a court of law could prove beyond reasonable doubt that a trans woman or man had not disclosed their identity before or during the sex act.

So I don’t think India or @ButterflyHatched have to worry about their ‘trans woman done for rape’ scenario.🤷🏽‍♀️

Well, no. Remember India is a woman- let that penetrate !

Tricked, dirty wrong, horrific, degrading, stigmatising, dehumanising.

India, of course, is another tw who must be speaking about someone else. Because the whole world and his wife knows India's sex.

@ButterflyHatched
Although I can be glib, I do have sympathy for your plight and what you have been through. Most people don't like seeing other people in pain.

The one thing I don't get is we gender criticals have been told people with gender dysphoria must have gender affirming care reassignment etc... to make them happy. Yet you've had the lot if I understand correctly and you don't seem happy? It might be that you are less unhappy than before, or a million other things. But you aren't selling me the dream and expectations of what we are told is the best course of action with the still unhappyness I get from your posts.

Did you get all you expected from your transition?

I was discussing this thread with a friend and he sent me this:

Here is Willoughby’s take on it all. Look familiar? The points seem to be doing the rounds.

x.com/indiawilloughby/status/1869199298006532524?s=46

“The legislation that is quietly being implemented by the UK Establishment against trans people right now by this Labour Government is truly horrific. Trans people in the UK must now declare their birth sex to a partner before sex - or face prosecution for rape. Outing themselves from the off. Degrading. This follows Labour’s announcement last week that even trans women who have had full sex reassignment surgery will go into the male prison estate if convicted of a sex crime. Which consensual sex in its common understanding would be. This almost guarantees every trans woman now sent to a UK prison will be raped. To hive a real world scenario, if a woman who is trans was at a Christmas party tonight, gets drunk, and ends up having sex with a guy - both parties lost in the moment but consenting - she could be thrown into a male jail and treated as a sex offender if the guy subsequently finds out her past and retrospectively withdraws his ‘consent’ because the woman didn’t tell him she was trans at the time. Even though there is nothing shameful about being trans, and trans is not a disease. It’s actually a protected characteristic. If you have a GRC, you legally do not have to declare your medical history to anyone. Where is the dignity? These two changes in UK law put trans women in particular in serious jeopardy - both in the bedroom with a partner, and in the prison system. It’s also incredibly stigmatising and dehumanising - with the clear inference that trans people having sex with c i s people are frauds, and that it is dirty and wrong. Utterly barbaric and inhumane @YvetteCooperMP @ShabanaMahmood . Written purely from the perspective of c i s people being ‘tricked’, with absolutely zero regard for the respect or safety of trans people.”

Very true. And very weird when you think about it.

@ButterflyHatched
I want to try and make a point in good faith. So I'm going to try and do it step by step and give you the benefit of the doubt where our world outlook differs.

I want to avoid putting words in your mouth and strawmanning you.
If I was to summarise what I believe you are saying as the below would you think that was a fair respresentation?

You are a woman and female. You body may not have started out as female, but with all the modifications you are now. You are just as much a woman as any other woman. Because the law being discussed doesn't treat you the same as other women your transness is being discriminated against.
Does that sound fair summation?

On page 18 at 14:19 ( forgive me I just caught up on a few pages ) you said this:
The law says that a trans woman who earnestly believes she is engaging in consensual sex with someone who perceives her to be a woman in line with her daily presentation is a sex criminal if that person secretly harbours transphobic views and hasn't made them clear to her.

Do you not see how that person secretly harbours transphobic views and hasn't made them clear could also be from the other point of view that person secretly harbours trans status and hadn't made that clear?

It's my belief that you believe that you are a woman/female.
Not everyone shares that belief, but there are many beliefs in life that people are strongly opposed on. That's fine. But you also have to understand and acknowledge that some people have very strong sexual preferences. Some people have much more fluid sexual preferences. Both are fine.

If you want you gender and sex respected as inate and at the very core of your being you also have to respect that some people's sexual preference and wants are just as core to their being as your identity is to you.
To call that inate sexuality transphobic views is to deny the other person the respect that you yourself want. The only logical solution is that both people should get the same respect from each other. You can't call someone transphobic just because they don't want what goes against their inate sexuality.

You know what would solve this conflict where you secretly harbour trans status fromn the other person, and they secretly harbour transphobic views from you? Talking about it. Once you tell them your secret you will find out if they secretly aren't sexually interested in you. You don't even have to make it about you, you could ask some off hand questions well in advance to try and gague their reaction. You have a woman's brain after all don't you?

I also recall being lectured on here by a man whose friend was a TW about how dreadful we all were and how said TW would give anything to menstruate like women do and how dare we complain about it and us doing so had reduced said TW to tears.

On another thread they are discussing the different types of AGP. This fits the description of the TW you mention.

• Physiologic autogynephilia: arousal to fantasies of body functions specific to people regarded as female

A fuck hole. Because there is no other purpose for it except to insert objects into.

If transwomen claims to be either a woman or female, THEY ARE LIEING about their sex
If a transman claims to be a man or male, THEY ARE LIEING about their sex.
It doesn't matter what surgeries or drugs that you've had/taken you can't change your sex it's a physical impossibility.
It's that simple don't lie about your sex to intimate partners and you won't break the law or be a sexual predator committing a sexual offence

From www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/high-functioning-sociopath

*People who have been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) are sometimes called sociopaths. They engage in behaviors that typically harm others for the benefit of themselves.

A “sociopath” has little regard for another person’s emotions, rights, or experiences. They lack remorse for their actions, and they act in ways that show no regard for others, including lying, cheating, and manipulating.*

Quite.

Vibes of a vagina is just a hole.

So your position is that non-passing TW should be able to use female single-sex spaces if they are trying their best (to pass?) but you wouldn’t personally use them (if you were a non-passing TW) because you wouldn’t want to frighten / upset women? So basically it all boils down to what the TW wants and actual women should just do their best to accommodate any perceived man who has decided what’s best for them is to use the ladies?

It's a recurring theme with TRAs.

It is.

We had one, I can't remember if it was BH, who claimed affinity with an infertile poster because they, the man, couldn't get pregnant either.

I recall that too.

The woman was horribly upset.

As she absolutely would be. Gotta love that empathy and compassion that is demanded but is always one way only. Zero empathy, compassion, understanding or consideration for women and girls as shown earlier by the we are coming into your spaces anyway.

I also recall being lectured on here by a man whose friend was a TW about how dreadful we all were and how said TW would give anything to menstruate like women do and how dare we complain about it and us doing so had reduced said TW to tears.

However, the bar for showing no compassion and making women's, or indeed a particular poster's trauma, all about themself has been set very high by Butterfly on this and recent threads.

No it doesn't there's no mention of transphobia in the law.
It's simple it doesn't matter how you identify or present, the only relevant facts are your biological sex and if you've been honest about it.
The law doesn't target transwomen.
The law treats a transperson who lies about their biological sex in exactly the same way as everyone else who lies about their sex.
This law doesn't give a rapist an excuse to rape a transwomen.
The law doesn't say anyone's feelings are more important than transpeople it priorities informed consent over the feelings of transpeople.
Wanting to know the sex of an intimate partner isnt transphobia or hate.
Someone not believing that a transwomen is a woman is not transphobic.
Someone not wanting to have sex with a transwomen is not transphobic.
The law is a good law that has been made better by denighing transpeople the right to rape/sexually assaulte men and women by lieing about their sex (same as everyone else).
If you don't like the law campaign to change it but you'll have to explain exactly why you think that you should have the right to lie to people so you can sexually assault them and why your self perception is more important than someone else bodily autonomy. I very much doubt that you'll get very far with your campaign as people don't like sexual predators trying to get a free pass to sexually assault anyone' they feel like.

It is a horrific thing to have read.

But, I fully understand how it can happen. When you overhear a group of young teen lesbians telling each that they have to accept ‘girl dick’ and they also have to accept surgically inserted cavities as ‘vaginas’ otherwise they are transphobic. Then you read post after post from the poster on these threads saying that transphobes are the only ones who care what sex a person’s body is you understand that there are quite a few groups more ‘vulnerable’ to the group we are led to believe are ‘most vulnerable’.

There are vulnerable groups who will be very much harmed from the attitudes we are seeing from this poster’s posts.

And the advice that this poster then gives to young people starts to really tick the red flag boxes.

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we should be humane and considerate to people who are trying their best with what they have even if their bodies don't look the same as ours, and I'm saying that can be done while also being conscious of and careful with the effect that doing so can have on other people who will find it difficult to accept them as they are.

Basically we are coming in anyway, get over it.