Page 5 | Puberty Suppressing Hormones, House of Commons, Wes Streeting taking a firm and intelligent stand

ScrollingLeaves · 2024-12-11T14:49:51+00:00

Wes Streeting is doing a good job of calmly holding his own in Parliament on this issue of puberty blockers being banned pending a trial. Some MPs have been standing up and speaking about ‘trans kids’ and suicide and so on, and how young people currently taking puberty blockers will source drugs from other sources as they will be left so desperate. Certain MPs have shown no inkling of the wider issues concerning gender dysphoria among troubled young people. WS read out report saying that suicide figures of trans people were skewed, and reporting of it dangerous. Others have seemed to be more aware. Sir John Hayes has brought up those who were vilified for whistleblowing such as Kathleen Stock, the lives ruined by the Tavistock and how it could have happened? WS has just paid tribute to Hannah Barnes. Women’s concerns. “I am very disappointed in behalf of our trans children….” Vikki Slade. She says there is no information on suicides for those on a gender waiting list. WS says all child deaths are monitored and reviewed. Jim Allister asking about parental consent and age for the puberty blocker trial. WS ethical concerns are being taken very seriously. “A breach of young people’s human rights” Carla Denyer (Green). Robin Swann County Antrim asking about closing access to puberty blockers through loopholes. Anyway, it is worth hearing WS. It seems to be the first time someone from Labour, who is allowed to speak, has seemed to have a depth of understanding about gender issues. He also speaks lucidly and with nuance. I don’t know if he is just very clever, but in the end slippery, or actually someone who will make a difference for the better but was impressed.

HousedInMySoul · 12/12/2024 14:04

Britinme · 11/12/2024 22:47

Maybe I'm unusual here, but I have no recollection of being horrified by either periods or breasts. In fact when I started my period, my mum said to my dad "daughter's joined the club" and I felt very grown-up and womanly.

I cried. I felt very sad that I was turning into an adult/woman tbh.
I had wanted to be a boy when I was younger, starting my period was perhaps the end of the gradual process of realisation that this would actually never happen.
I also didn't want to be grabbed, groped an leered at by boys and men, which was of course what started happening when I developed fairly large breasts and curvy hips.
However, I wouldn't have wanted to be sterile with no sexual function, so I'm really glad all this trans stuff wasn't around when I was a child. I think my mum would have been all over it tbh. She trusts the NHS and if there was a "treatment" available for me wanting to be a "boy" I think she may have taken me down this pathway 😱

IDareSay · 12/12/2024 12:40

WarriorN · 12/12/2024 12:28

Must say I wasn't as happy and others seemed to be due to his speech. I'm sure I heard him say something about suicide risks; I haven't had time to go back and check.

I keep hoping that it's all rhetoric to appear "sensitive" but I don't trust anything yet.

I agree. While welcoming the ban, statements like this from Streeting do concern me. I hope he is just trying to appease.

"In the past few months, I have met young trans people, who either have been, may be, or will be affected by the decisions that I and my predecessor have taken. I have listened to their concerns, fears and anxieties, and I want to talk directly to them. I know it is not easy being a trans kid in our country today. The trans community is at the wrong end of all the statistics for mental ill health, self-harm and suicide."

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-12-11/debates/03C1AD39-5B5E-4568-BFF3-FC6DB87575E6/Puberty-SuppressingHormones

WarriorN · 12/12/2024 12:31

Sorry @BonfireLady, yes you've pot on the exact quote that really concerned me

WarriorN · 12/12/2024 12:30

The children I teach have extreme communication and sensory difficulties as part of their autism.

Puberty can be extremely challenging for them, especially the girls, and also all their care givers from a sensory pov.

WarriorN · 12/12/2024 12:28

Must say I wasn't as happy and others seemed to be due to his speech. I'm sure I heard him say something about suicide risks; I haven't had time to go back and check.

I keep hoping that it's all rhetoric to appear "sensitive" but I don't trust anything yet.

SuzieNine · 12/12/2024 11:45

Wow, is this the first time the Guardian has opened up comments on an article on transgenderism? The times they definitely are a-changing. The standard of debate below the line seems to have remained civilised but I bet the mods were shitting themselves.

TheAntisocialButterfly · 12/12/2024 11:30

ScrollingLeaves · 12/12/2024 11:01

And many girls who are not autistic in our society are often shocked as their body changes to create hips and breasts because this seems fat and repulsive to them. From this comes endless dieting with eating disorders and poor mental health. Some develop anorexia, others binge eating and purging, (if anorexia doesn’t take hold, as that is a starvation response).

Female bodies are also worrying to their possessors because of unwanted attention from men when they start developing.

Show quote history

All very true.

Original poster

ScrollingLeaves · 12/12/2024 11:01

TheAntisocialButterfly · 12/12/2024 09:58

It isn't uncommon for autistic girls to struggle with the change and sensory issues involved with puberty and menstruation.

Show quote history

And many girls who are not autistic in our society are often shocked as their body changes to create hips and breasts because this seems fat and repulsive to them. From this comes endless dieting with eating disorders and poor mental health. Some develop anorexia, others binge eating and purging, (if anorexia doesn’t take hold, as that is a starvation response).

Female bodies are also worrying to their possessors because of unwanted attention from men when they start developing.

OP posts:

Original poster

ScrollingLeaves · 12/12/2024 10:49

BonfireLady · 12/12/2024 06:39

I'm disappointed that Wes Streeting is using the phrase "trans kids" still. I had hoped he had quietly dropped it. By using this phrase, unfortunately he's demonstrating he doesn't have a full enough understanding of the issues.

I haven't watched the video yet (but will do so when I get the chance), but I saw his quoted words in the Guardian. Here's the first paragraph of what he said (my bold):

In a message directly to them, and referencing having come out as gay, he said: “I know it’s not easy being a trans kid in our country today, the trans community is at the wrong end of all of the statistics for mental ill health, self-harm and suicide

Yes, he's making significant inroads into ending this medical scandal but until he adjusts his thinking on this, he will remain in a position where he's unable to see the full picture. Dr David Bell is incredibly clear that there is no such thing as a "trans child" because using this term forecloses on the outcome of any exploration of the child's distress.

If you're reading this Wes (I'd love to think you've now found MN), please keep doing what you're doing but please drop this term. You don't need to say it.

Edited to add link to Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/11/puberty-blockers-to-be-banned-indefinitely-for-under-18s-across-uk

Edited

Please would you write to him, @BonfireLady? Maybe everyone who can should write to him?

I had missed that particular part where he said that. Oh dear. It could undermine everything.

I wonder if he was trying to keep the thousands of naysayers on his side, stop the puberty blockers for now, run the trial and see what happens? Or, if he still truly believes ‘kids’ are born trans?

The phrase ‘trans kids’ being used by someone in charge of public health is very worrying because it is deeply ignorant.

Thank you for flagging this up.

Dr Cass referred to “ diagnostic overshadowing” of jumping to affirm children as trans rather than being gender dysphoric for many other reasons. WS should know that.

What children are truly being ‘born’ trans - such that it is right to refer to them as ‘trans kids’ - rather than not necessarily conforming to gender stereotypes, born into a homophobic family when they might be gay, affected a difficulty such as autism, or trauma, or influenced by the internet or copying peers?

They need help in any case but affirmation as trans per se - calling them ‘trans kids’ - is not helping them. That is not watchful waiting but confirming and labelling.

The Cass report said that

Clinicians are “unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity”

So how dare any MP including WS ignore this and think they have the right to talk about ‘trans kids’ which cements being trans as an identity?

OP posts:

TheAntisocialButterfly · 12/12/2024 09:58

Britinme · 11/12/2024 22:47

Maybe I'm unusual here, but I have no recollection of being horrified by either periods or breasts. In fact when I started my period, my mum said to my dad "daughter's joined the club" and I felt very grown-up and womanly.

It isn't uncommon for autistic girls to struggle with the change and sensory issues involved with puberty and menstruation.

Janie143 · 12/12/2024 09:47

I amazes me how thick some MPs are

Igmum · 12/12/2024 08:00

Well said Bonfire and Wes, generally pretty good with room for improvement.

BonfireLady · 12/12/2024 06:39

I'm disappointed that Wes Streeting is using the phrase "trans kids" still. I had hoped he had quietly dropped it. By using this phrase, unfortunately he's demonstrating he doesn't have a full enough understanding of the issues.

I haven't watched the video yet (but will do so when I get the chance), but I saw his quoted words in the Guardian. Here's the first paragraph of what he said (my bold):

In a message directly to them, and referencing having come out as gay, he said: “I know it’s not easy being a trans kid in our country today, the trans community is at the wrong end of all of the statistics for mental ill health, self-harm and suicide

Yes, he's making significant inroads into ending this medical scandal but until he adjusts his thinking on this, he will remain in a position where he's unable to see the full picture. Dr David Bell is incredibly clear that there is no such thing as a "trans child" because using this term forecloses on the outcome of any exploration of the child's distress.

If you're reading this Wes (I'd love to think you've now found MN), please keep doing what you're doing but please drop this term. You don't need to say it.

Edited to add link to Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/dec/11/puberty-blockers-to-be-banned-indefinitely-for-under-18s-across-uk

Brainworm · 12/12/2024 00:44

I think Carla Denyer was conflating denying puberty blockers with denying treatment altogether. I think she would be right to say that failing to treat a certain demographic would be illegal, but failure to provide whatever treatment is wanted by a given demographic certainly isn't and is line with how all demographics are treated within the field of medicine.

It's hard to believe that MPs genuinely struggle to understand the difference between offering no treatment versus not offering a patient's preferred treatment; or between administering puberty blockers up until a child reaches the age of 10 and starting puberty blockers at the age of 10.

Britinme · 11/12/2024 22:47

Maybe I'm unusual here, but I have no recollection of being horrified by either periods or breasts. In fact when I started my period, my mum said to my dad "daughter's joined the club" and I felt very grown-up and womanly.

Original poster

ScrollingLeaves · 11/12/2024 22:42

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2024 21:08

What a time! A Labour MP talking about a boy who doesn’t want to get his period, or his breasts to grow. We are truly in a mystical level, anti scientific era.

Wes Streeting was head and shoulders above many of his fellow MP’s who seem to be not just believing in magic, but importantly making their public profession of this currently faddish belief. I won’t say bollocks. Out of politeness.

Edited

A Labour MP talking about a boy who doesn’t want to get his period, or his breasts to grow….

….and who, she said, therefore developed anorexia as a way of stopping ‘his’ periods.

While the MP was commendable in evidently caring very much for the well-being of her constituent, hers was the reaction I found exceptionally troubling. How many girls facing puberty have not been horrified by periods and breasts? And think how many girls have developed anorexia as a way to deal with such changes as well as other problems. It must be thousands every year.

Since when has the assumption arisen that the answer to their distress is puberty blockers with the rationale that the whole reason for their horror and distress is that they are really trans. How can this MP not question this at all?

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socialdilemmawhattodo · 11/12/2024 21:48

EauNeu · 11/12/2024 18:37

Welcome news but. there's no such thing as trans kids.

The talk about trials of puberty blockers is worrying. I hope and expect that no trial for the use of these drugs on confused children without medical need never gets past any ethics committee.

This has been my slight niggle over the last few months. Is all of the delay so simply that trials can be set up? To provide "firm" evidence that all of this is OK? I hope not.

ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 21:46

And this is Sian Berry on X, repeating the q she asked Streeting:

Continuing the blanket ban on puberty blockers is a worrying decision. The same medication continues to be used safely by young people for other reasons. By relying on the reason for prescription, is this simply discrimination against our #trans youth?

So it is discrimination that the same treatment is not given to a totally different cohort for a totally different reason🙄

Compared to some of the excellent input from other MPs, I would venture that this was not the Greens' finest hour.

ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 21:40

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2024 21:26

The second Green MP was a bit put out when WS said that any trial would have a robust scientific and ethics basis (paraphrasing). That didn’t seem to be what the Green MP had meant at all, judging by her expression. One could be forgiven for thinking that she was arguing for the opposite.

Surely all children deserve to be treated to good healthcare with a scientific and ethical basis.

It was Carla Denyer. She has repeated her q, on X:

I share concerns of experts at (Council of Europe) that removing access to Puberty Blockers except through clinical trials may breach “fundamental ethical principles governing research”, amounting to coercion and a breach of young people's human rights.

No, I don't understand her point

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2024 21:26

The second Green MP was a bit put out when WS said that any trial would have a robust scientific and ethics basis (paraphrasing). That didn’t seem to be what the Green MP had meant at all, judging by her expression. One could be forgiven for thinking that she was arguing for the opposite.

Surely all children deserve to be treated to good healthcare with a scientific and ethical basis.

Cailleach1 · 11/12/2024 21:08

What a time! A Labour MP talking about a boy who doesn’t want to get his period, or his breasts to grow. We are truly in a mystical level, anti scientific era.

Wes Streeting was head and shoulders above many of his fellow MP’s who seem to be not just believing in magic, but importantly making their public profession of this currently faddish belief. I won’t say bollocks. Out of politeness.

Original poster

ScrollingLeaves · 11/12/2024 20:53

W S seems to have actually read the Cass report, thought carefully about it, and to be person who can think
clearly in general. This did not seem to be the case with some of the other MPs arguing emotively from the
‘be kind to trans kids’ point of view. It was shocking to hear how they think actually though they must sincerely feel they are being good MPs showing empathy to their constituents.

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LizzieSiddal · 11/12/2024 20:01

Well done Wes, really pleased to hear what he had to say.

EauNeu · 11/12/2024 18:57

EauNeu · 11/12/2024 18:37

Welcome news but. there's no such thing as trans kids.

The talk about trials of puberty blockers is worrying. I hope and expect that no trial for the use of these drugs on confused children without medical need never gets past any ethics committee.

I made quite a mess of the negatives in this post, but the sentiment is there.

OldCrone · 11/12/2024 18:49

there's no such thing as trans kids.

Yes, people need to stop pandering to the idea put about by adults with an ulterior motive that it's possible for children to be transsexual.