Protest the BBC giving a man “women’s footballer of the year” December 17th

I'm not too far from Salford. I wouldn't mind going along.

Can we have info about the protest and how to attend that is not on X please?

Tell that to Erika/Erik Schinegger, the Austrian champion skier caught out by a similarly undiagnosed condition in the days before European healthcare got better at diagnosing DSDs in infants. The difference being, he didn't double down like Semenya and tell women they should simply train harder - he actually arranged for his Olympic medal to go to the top woman in his race. And also, this was a truly tragic case in that his times were actually good enough to make the men's squad, if the sporting authorities at the time hadn't been too bigoted to nominate him after his true sex was discovered.

anniegun · Today 13:44

So are we against women who look a bit like men? This is a WOMAN. Just because she is not blond with a ponytale. How hateful that people want her banned because of her looks

No, he was banned by the African football authorities, because he's a he, a male man, with a DSD. See the post by:

arethereanyleftatall · Today 16:06

Imane Khelif boxed an Italian, a Hungarian, a Thai and a Chinese woman to "win" Olympic gold. Not an Australian.

Not sure which match @Echobelly was watching.

Oh nice slide from race to geography there. Did you do it on purpose or was it unconscious bias?

The differentiator here is not the person's race but where they were born and raised.

A Black man with a DSD from a developed nation like Australia would most likey have been diagnosed shortly after (or even before) birth, but at worst at puberty when periods etc did not start, and so would never have been in elite women's sports in the first place.

A person of any race born and brought up in a developing nation without that level of medical oversight may well not have known and may have believed themselves to be a woman excelling in their sport until they got high enough up to run into sex testing. Which is, of course, why regions that have higher levels of certan DSDs and lower levels of routine medical checks are targeted by talent scouts.

But don't worry too much about our poor Australian man! He always has the option of pulling a Hubbard and simply claiming to identitfy as a woman and taking a woman's win away from her that way.

Now the really interesting question about race which you haven't asked and probably doesn't occur to you is why are so many of the actual trans women (men who identify as women without a DSD) in women's sports white?

The majority of the English women’s football team have blonde ponytails.

Why on earth do we need a world footballer for women category sponsored by the BBC is beyond me. Before this, who had heard of her? She plays for Orlando in the USA I assume and Zambia! For most people she’s really not a front line sports woman (or not!). It’s such a stupid decision to include her (him) on the list in the first place. There are plenty of other worthy women!

Do all women have blonde hair?
Do all women have a ponytail?
You are being ridiculous if that's how you define a woman. Faux outrage.

Not wanting men is womens sports is racist too now?
There are very good reasons why people with DSD are likely to come from developing nations and objecting to people who have been through male puberty competing with womens sports is not racist, accusing them of it is a not very good attempt to shut them up.

@echobelly becomes the second poster on a thread of what ten people so far who are utterly uneducated on this matter. 20%. Scary stuff for women. If you don't know anything about it, don't comment.

No, she wasn't Australian.
No, Imane is not a her.
No, it's nothing to do with colour.

It's to do with XY chromosomes and testes. Having them means you are male.

Imane, semenya and this footballer all have a DSD called 5 alpha reductase deficiency its a DSD that means a male fetus fails to grow a penis, the tissue is sometimes obviously ambiguous, sometimes observed as, although in reality not female, please note that a blind vaginal pouch, is not a vagina. There is no vagina, only a malformed penis and testicles.

This is really not hard to understand. He is a man and once he goes through puberty, could like any other man father children.

The reason they are from third world countries is because it's a DSD that would be spotted and they would be detailed as male in developed countries.

Did you watch the fight? One was clearly a man, every movement showed it. You can photoshop as much as you like, but when they move, you see it.

Funny how it never seems to be the white sportwomen who get this.

No one seems to have been outraged that the Australian (I think) boxer who Imane Khelif defeated to win her Olympics title was a similar height and build to her. I wonder why that was?

These young people are cynically targeted by a number of sporting bodies in order to exploit their likely DSD for commercial gain:
Extract:

"BBC Sport Africa understands that three other Zambian players were affected by gender eligibility but chose not to feature for the national team, whose squad features 22, rather than the permitted 26, players.
Banda was originally named in Zambia's Wafcon squad after taking medication to help reduce her levels of testosterone, which are naturally overly-high, but she has still not met the regulations, BBC Sport Africa understands".

Cross post - thank you, you said it better than me.

@midgetastic I didn't mean to suggest that you are weaponising bekind with your concern, I am saying it has been weaponised by TRAs personalising any criticsm of men taking women's places (including those with DSDs who may not have discovered heir status until puberty or even until they were tested in sports) as an effective tactic to shut down the subject, and that means women have to be prepared to say "Yes, this specific person is not a woman and giving this perrson a woman's award/place/opportunity is not fair on women and it has to be challenged even if this is hurtful to that person."

This is always the dilemma for women. It does come down to "be kind and ignore the outrage / unfairness / appropriation" because there's usually an individual at the centre.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/62057259

These sports people with DSD don't just happen to end up competeing in sports at a high level. There are scouts who actually look for them as they know that they have natural advantages over women but may be able to compete with them, its deliberate. I don't blame the individuals as much, for them its often a way out of poverty for them and their families and an escape from a situation where marriage may be expected but difficult and I am not without sympathy.
BUT there comes a point where is is just cheating

I am not trying to weaponise "be kind"

I am just trying to be clear who the culprit is - and in the case of DSD I see that person as a culprit as much as a victim - extenuating circumstances if you like. It also would not surprise me if they have already been a victim of bullying by girls - I think it's very common for masculine girls to be bullied for that aspect of their appearance or character

And if many other people think like me on this then protesting in that way may do more harm than good

I feel that the protest and objections need to be depersonalised somehow

These people have been abused by professionals who I am damn sure know exactly why their protege does so well

I would be a lot more comfortable offering support not hate - support they might reject but that's their call. And focus on the institutions that are putting people ( the women and the DSD person ) in harms way

2 wrongs don't make a right

I also find it rather racist, it's as if the decision of those black people in Africa is clearly wrong because us white people disagree.

It shouldn't. But that care for individuals gets weaponised to silence women, and that's not ok either. Sometimes you have to counter "Don't be unkind" with "Don't put men into female positions, yes not even that one."

The African Football league ( apologise if this isn’t the right title, I’m not able to look it up now) banned Banda from playing in their woman’s competition because Banda did not meet their definition of a woman.
So if anyone is being discriminatory, it is the home continent.

Totally agree

But it's how we go about preventing women losing their rights - targeting individuals - protesting in their faces - should not be necessary

We can agree this DSD is horrible for these men without allowing them to trample all over females.

If it's a person with XY chromosomes it's a man - nothing to do with looks , although appearances often indicate the chromosomes

If it's a DSD it's horrible as they often are raised as female , often don't realise they are male till puberty , and as such I would not want to protest at the event

Not that they should get an award that is a female award - these people need protection from abuse including those who don't support them in their disability but instead pretend all is ok

Um. You might want to do some research. Male with a DSD for males. XY chromosomes.